German Shepherd Dog > It is time to look back and see what we are doing! (55 replies)
It is time to look back and see what we are doing!
by José Tinoco on 07 June 2012 - 11:35
|I just want to say that the german Shepherd is my loved breed! yet, I can see that the abusive use of inbreeding or even linebreeding, toguether with low level of information is leading to a dog that is NOT the working animal we all admire!|
If we are serious about, lets see the Orthopedic Foundation for animals estatistics about the breed hips (20 percent of declared displasics) and compare with similar dogs like Belgian Shepherds, Tervuren, Malinois, Dobermann and even Collie.
A dog must be health to work! That results coldnt exist in a selected breed. What we think we are selecting for? Just beauty? There is no beuaty without work ability! Please lets do something about.
LETS FACE THE PROBLEM! WHO DO WE THINK WE ARE FOOLING?
There is time left to correct it using the workingline and changing the goals! If we dont wake up we will need to cross with belgians to save it from the our own mistakes.
by Blitzen on 07 June 2012 - 12:47
|Oh please not this again, the working lines will save the breed. Don't they ever get HD too?|
by José Tinoco on 07 June 2012 - 13:28
|What I want to say is that when we compare the 4% of displasics of Belgians or Collies, 6 % of displasics of Dobermanns with 20% in the German Shepherd. We must wake up! Something is wrong. We were supose to be selecting the breed, I just cant accept that as if it is the way it should be!. When I was talking about workingline thats was just because I was reading that they had better hips, yet if they dont have it too. Thats time to think in a second plan!. The worst thing is just hide the problem! Instead of try to prove it is not so bad, we should stop to breed the dogs that are displasic (even VA decendents or very good show dogs). We were supose to identify the products generated from normal dogs, creating a system easy to any breeder to see. That could be simple like to give advantages to dogs that have the pedigree free from displsics at the last five generations. Those dogs exist! They are just a few in the breed and should be used.|
Those who dont want to change will say: The normal dogs are very close to the fast normal!, or that the Lightly affected dog can generate valid descendents! or that the Displasia is Mult factorial problem and many dogs nocks... can have good genetic material. Well, thats like to explain that we dont want to loose the dogs we have in home, but we should see that the breed is more important!
Stop to breed affected dogs, select the breed!
by José Tinoco on 07 June 2012 - 13:31
|If there isnt any other way lets permit breed with BELGIANS! The Quarter Horse permit to breed with Thougbreed for decades to improve the race abillity!|
by Mel62368 on 07 June 2012 - 14:20
|yes that would not be a German Shepherd, and a Quarter horse breed with a thoughbreed is an Appendix Quarter horse, not a Quarter horse. That make no sense.|
by Siantha on 07 June 2012 - 14:38
|Everyone just needs to learn that just because the parents are ofa good dosent mean the grand parents or great grandparents are aswell. people need to learn pedigrees and their benefits.|
by Kaffirdog on 07 June 2012 - 14:46
|I admire your passion Jose, but don't agree the Malinois will be the saviour of the GSD, they get HD too and epilepsy is a bigger problem in Malinois than it is in GSD, so mixing the two has as much chance of producing offspring with two problems as it does of fixing one. Plus the Mali is far less stable in type than the GSD and some of the working line ones have other breeds mixed in, I've seen some with obvious bull breed influence, probably not the sort of thing most potential GSD owners are looking for. If you really want a breed to fix HD, you would need to use a Greyhound, but that would only hold true for one generation.|
by Blitzen on 07 June 2012 - 14:54
|It may also be a good idea to|
1. sedate dogs when they have their hips done
2. not breed dogs based on xrays taken at 12 months
3. not use NZ's anymore; not use fast normals unless they have a strong background of clear dogs and are bred to dogs with the same
4. not use dogs with siblings, parents or g-parents that are moderately or severely dysplastic
5 not use dogs from parents that have siblings that are moderately to severely dysplastic
6. stop using dogs for breeding that have produced progeny that are moderately to severely dyslastic
7. don't use dogs for breeding if they are not xrayed
8. don't buy breeding prospects from breeders who don't xray
That's how most breeds have reduced the incidence of HD.
Edited to read:
9. don't repeat breedings that have produced dogs with moderate to severe HD.
by José Tinoco on 07 June 2012 - 14:57
|The fact is that I am in the German Shepherd since 1993. First I acepted all the teory the justifing the use of displasics, but with almost 20 years of breeding I can say we are in the wrong way! Our estatistics prove that and we better change. About the apendix it becomes QH in two generations and if it runs well it becames Quarter Horse at the first generation. They look at the results. We from the German Shepherd dont, we want to sell puppies. Even loosing to Belgians, Doberman and Collies, we keep saying we select the breed! I want results!|
Please just do something about!!!!
USE THE WORKING LINE! CHANGE THE DOGS THAT DONT HAVE GOOD HIPS ALL OVER THE PEDIGREE!!! DONT LET THE TIME PROVE YOU ARE WRONG! CHANGE THE WAY NOW! SAVE OUR GERMAN SHEPHERD! IF I COULD HAVE A PERMITION TO MAKE THE MIX I WOULD DO IT NOW!
by José Tinoco on 07 June 2012 - 15:01
GOOD BLITZEN! Thats what we need! Atitude!
by José Tinoco on 07 June 2012 - 15:04
|The malinois got 5 % of displasics, but is closer in the origin to the German Shepherd.|
The use of Greyhound could change so much. But thats an alternative if there is really necessary
by José Tinoco on 07 June 2012 - 15:08
|How about the DDRs? How are they doing with hips?|
by Blitzen on 07 June 2012 - 15:36
Hi Jose', nice to see you back.
by Hundmutter on 07 June 2012 - 16:18
|IMHO Blitzen's 8-point list above is EXACTLY the answer, and if every GSD breeder stuck to that list and NEVER bent the 'rules', they would soon not be needing to look for "quick fixes" such as inter-breeding with Belgian Shepherds of any variety, or restricting ourselves to "working line" dogs. "Simples". Linda S.|
by Felloffher on 07 June 2012 - 16:22
If we based our breeding philosophy on # 5 & 6 how many lines would be eliminated from the gene pool and what other traits would be lost in the process?
by Blitzen on 07 June 2012 - 17:02
|I don't disagree, but the thread is about hips and how to improve them. There is never a way to gain in one area without losing in another, especially in a breed where there are so many expectations. It's all about one's priorities.|
Personally I think that #6 is one of the more important items. Why breed to and from dogs that are known to have produced moderate to severe HD in their progeny? You would know this better than me, but are there any dogs that valuable to the breed?
by Blitzen on 07 June 2012 - 17:25
|Statistics can be misleading. The vast majority of xrays seen by OFA and the SV are ones that are probably going to pass or very close calls. I doubt they see many xrays of dogs that are moderately or severely dysplastic unless the dog's owner has a grudge against the breeder or the bloodlines. The ZW rating may be even more misleading than OFA statistics. The SV and the OFA can only evaluate what they see. |
Not all owners allow negative results to be released to the OFA database. I can see both sides of that arguement. Given that some breeders just lie in wait for another breeder to make a mistake, negative results are subject to be used for reasons other than they are intended, as teaching tools. Instead they are often used as weapons to discredit good breeders and good dogs.
by Red Sable on 07 June 2012 - 17:34
As long as we are breeding dogs that have the bad hips gene we will always have dogs with hip dysplasia. Yes, it may narrow the gene pool, but linebreeding which is ever so popular with many studs is narrowing it much worse.
I don't know what the answer is, as none of us can even agree on what makes a good dog!
by Blitzen on 07 June 2012 - 17:43
|If one linebreeds on dogs with good hips that are known to produce good hips, it should reduce the incidence of bad hips. However, as RS has stated, it may bring with it a whole new set of problems. Pick your poison.......|
by Felloffher on 07 June 2012 - 18:47