German Shepherd Dog > Hock walker? (326 replies)
by Markobytes on 09 June 2012 - 00:31
Nice videos, this dog's structure has certainly not slowed him down! There is a real good point in this thread that should not be missed, like it or not, there is a reason the SV is taking the breed beyond where you see it now. Gustav had some very good, respectful posts and named some very good dogs of the past. However I am going to agree with Ibrahim, todays VAs, speaking structurally only, are superior. The biggest success that I have seen recently is better fronts, they seem to be more common among the better bred conformation dogs. At the heart of the disagreements we have is where do we find the perfect GSD. Was it epitomized in the dogs at the turn of the 20th century as some have posted here? Was the perfect dog here in the 1960s and still lives on in the working lines? Is the GSD still in the beginning, we still have a long way before we are consistently producing dogs as stated in the standard? We can not change what the SV does, like it or not they are the ruling body appointed by the founders. You should not mindlessly bash every conformation dog because you do not agree with what the SV does. I have been around a few conformation shows and can tell you the judge will not place your dog ahead because it has a roached back. This is a fallacy, somewhere someone saw a dog with poor structure being placed behind a dog with much better structure and all they could see with their untrained eye is what they think is a roached back. Don't get stuck in the 1980s, see what is happening now. A few years ago I showed my sable female in a handful of shows where the competition was tough. She has an absolutely straight back, no one can say she has a roach but she always placed amongst the high dollar imports and the top bitches of the top kennels. I do not feel she was discriminated against because of her color pattern or her top line. To the contrary, her critiques were impressive I could see that the judges really liked her. I have said way to much, many of you will dismiss my post and keep thinking from a narrow point of view. My only hope is some new person to this forum will have a rebuttal to some of the more uneducated posts. I have no problem with the true working people who have a sincere and educated disagreement with the direction the breed is taking. Make your point intelligibly, give specifics. To those who can only brand dogs as roached back hock walkers, grow up. Any one who is not willing to consider another point of view does so at their own peril, you have no chance to better yourself or others. Temperament and drives are separate but a legitimate discussion we should have on another thread. There is a wide range of opinions on this subject give specifics, do not let your thoughts devolve into useless labels.
by Blitzen on 09 June 2012 - 03:02
|Another excellent post, Markobytes.|
by Abby Normal on 09 June 2012 - 05:23
|I have no idea why, but this is the second thread where I cannot see the video, just a black box.|
Yes, good post Markobytes. It is easy to stay in a 'box' of one's own creation or past experience. It's good to stop and 'check' if it's still valid.
by Ibrahim on 09 June 2012 - 07:54
|Well said Markobytes, those who may disagree with you on certain points will have difficulty disagreeing with the line of logic in your thoughts plus the honesty in your motives.|
by Gustav on 09 June 2012 - 11:41
|I always try to remember to be respectful even when not agreeing. I will not belabor this point any further. I will just say that in the mid seventies I actuality was in the American show ring. I walked away not only because of the temperament of these dogs, but more importantly, the type dog that was being created,by the exclusion of all the outside blood to chase the Holy Grail of gait. You could see the changes taking place in shoulders,stifles, hocks, and angulation. I told anyone that would listen that the continued recycling of the same lines would lead to ?,,,,,well something different , lol Well, God blessed me with being able to look at the American show dog 35 years later.......a different type dog has emerged. I started mixing Czech/West working 15 years ago when many pure sport people could not see that the infusion of the new Czech blood was more important than their differences, for long term diversity in the sport. Now 15 years later there are many Top sport competitors and breeders that wouldn't have been caught dead with Czech blood,competing with mixes. My point is that I don't think I will be able to see the WGSL in the next thirty years, but some of you will, and if function loses completely to form......maybe some of you will remember the rants of Gustav. Maybe not?! Anyway, time tells all.|
by magdalenasins on 09 June 2012 - 11:42
|DO you go to a special class to teach show dogs to gait or do they just do it? Is it expected in the Korung? |
That last picture of the WL female looks more showline to me as well but what do I know I only have straight backed dogs.
by Blitzen on 09 June 2012 - 12:30
|Not all ASL breeders are happy with their dogs and some are doing what they think is the right thing to try to make the improvements they want. For some of us that means breeding our ASL's to GSL's. The GSDCA's judge's education committee is trying to see that the presenters stress correct movement, not the flying trot where dogs must be moved out at top speed, but it's a tough egg to crack. Many of the breeder-judges think that GSD's should be judged on side gait while being moved out at top speed. Slow down? No way...let em rip. Clearly the members of the GSDCA are nowhere close to agreeing that these dogs need to be slowed down in the ring in order to observe and evaluate their structure more correctly. Maybe they are afraid of what they may see?|
A few months ago at a GSD specialty a 11 month old puppy dog got a lot of attention when he was awared best puppy in show by a respected breeder-judge. What made it a win worth mentioning here was he was sired by a Sch3, GSL import, his g-grandsire. We believe this is the first time the best puppy at a specialty was sired by a GSL out of a 1/4 GSL bitch. He is a moderate dog, not overdone in any way and has been bred for performance and conformation. His owner plans to show him in both SV and AKC venues and hopes to title him in both.
Some "AKC people" are really trying to do the right thing and make a difference by breeding for a more moderate dog that can title in both SV and AKC venues.
by Blitzen on 09 June 2012 - 12:32
|I agree - that WL female does look like a SL.|
by Rik on 09 June 2012 - 12:41
|I have pretty much stopped posting on threads like this because it is a debate that has no end or conclusion. Gustav has posted some things that can only be learned from experience and no amount of reading internet posts can really gain another that experience or change an opinion.|
My experience pretty much mirrors his as far as the results of breeding for show and chasing gait, which is the holy grail of the Am. dog and seems to be more and more the goal in the GSL.
I doubt that in the end, the results will differ greatly. A dog that is useful as a pet or show only. And that is how any breeder of Am. dogs I have known class their dogs, show quality or pet. The honest ones make no pretense they are good for anything else.
by Gustav on 09 June 2012 - 12:53
|@ Rik....you say things much less threatening than I, and I suspect you are more effective than I....good post!|
@ Blitzen, I understand a few ASL are doing this, but 35 years later, now the move??????, but my point is that the GSL dogs are travelling the same path, using the same genetic formula, in search of the same things, using the same arguments, in spite of evidences contrary....it seems like Deja Vu to me.....but again time tells all. And when the few start to wake up, the overall condition of the lines is very compromised....actually the compromised condition of the ASL is the ONLY reason they are using GSL blood.
by Blitzen on 09 June 2012 - 13:09
I agree, Gustav. You know who I co-own my dog with and that she is not a conformist to the ASL flying trot dog.
by SitasMom on 09 June 2012 - 14:08
Many GSL breeders are working to preserve hardness and workability in their lines, but many more are just getting looking for "gait" or "color"....... too bad.
Some WL breeders are working on structure and tempermant in their lines, but many more are just looking for a dog that has grips and has crazy drives .... too bad.
Temperament and Structure are everything......(notice the order in which I used?). Temperament includes balanced drives. Without correct temperament the rest of the dog is nothing - Without healthy structure the dog is nothing - not even a good companion.
WL and SL will always disagree on structure and the amount of drive a dog should have and how to read the breed standard - this exact argument has been going on since about 1910.
It is important to understand the whole breed standard and to apply each part of it equally, we are not to decide which parts are more or less important.
by Ruger1 on 09 June 2012 - 14:47
|LOve this thread!,,All of your words are not falling on deaf ears some are listening..|
by Gustav on 09 June 2012 - 14:49
|@ Blitzen......,,,,,,just finished tracking and doing obedience with my 8 month pup. I'm sure he does not have healthy structure by the show ring, but he is great companion, great with kids, will make a great sport dog or working dog.....I'd like to think he's a lot more than nothing.|
by SchaeferhundSchH on 09 June 2012 - 14:53
|Markobytes great post however I must say, that while I have greatly enjoyed club and regional shows and the placements were very honest. I have to say my opinions on the sieger shows is vastly different... The entire thing is run by politics and that is ruining the breed.|
Some of the far superior dogs are still not placing well because of those politics. Some people are playing the game WITH the superior dogs and are making it, and for those people good for you for getting there, But I would rather not play into the politics to see a dog rise to the top.
by Ibrahim on 09 June 2012 - 17:03
|maybe some of you will remember the rants of Gustav. Maybe not?! Anyway, time tells all.|
Gustav, no matter what the outcome will be, you remain a great guy with principles, you chose a path you believe in, you did very well and I have no doubt about it, you have my utmost respect and I'm certain many share me my true feelings, God bless you.
by Markobytes on 09 June 2012 - 18:09
No one should play politics but often the monetary gain for having a German judge declare your kennel to be the top kennel surpasses a sense of fair play. To many puppy buyers once they see "top kennel in the US" on a website, have finished their shopping. Attendance at a Sieger show includes a lot of knowledgeable people. If a good dog is placed in a position next to or behind inferior dogs or if an inferior dog is placed ahead of it's betters, it sticks out like a sore thumb. Let the people see your dog, you may not win on that day but you will in the long run. The bitework is where every dog is scrutinized and a well trained dog sticks out like a sore thumb.
by Gustav on 09 June 2012 - 22:01
|@ Markobytes, how long a run will it take....lol This isn't new by any means.|
Question for you Markobytes and not trying to be funny but to make a point.
Couple years ago, a dog named Javir Talka Marda, competed in Seiger show. He has excellent structure in general, he had a progeny group, he unequivocally has the genetics to bring immense improvement to the genetics and temperament of the Show world. Here was an opportunity to make him a VA dog even if it was a lower VA dog; the platform that the VA placing would have given him would have ensured that he was used much more by SL and thus strengthening and diversifying the genepool, at a relative low cost to negative impact on structure. The importance of what he could bring far outweighed his color or that he was from working lines. Not asking for them to make him Seiger, but The Capn himself has put up dogs as Seigers that were entirely different from the current trend to alter the direction of breeders whether it was size or temperament. So this concept isn't new, it just takes a pair.....OR is the system so entrenched(I didn't say corrupted....smile), that the top people in SV couldn't do this. I would like to think that top Judges in SV are much smarter than I am about the need to strengthen some weaknesses, and it has to start with genetics.......so why do you think this opportunity was passed by with giving him a V50 something. Just curious
by Markobytes on 10 June 2012 - 00:34
V54 out of 137Vs is not too shabby, personally I don't think Javir had the structure to go VA. I believe judges will bump up places due to working ability. Bazi v.d. Urbecke was placed ahead of dogs who were structurally better because of his working ability. The SV apparently doesn't believe it needs to make a step as bold as you suggest. I noticed that d'Ulemental kennel did breed to Javir and show his progeny. I think Javir's breeder had the whole GSD in mind when he was produced and I myself think he is a remarkable dog.
by Blitzen on 10 June 2012 - 00:50
|Gustav, your pup sounds like a great dog. I think he will do you proud. I'm just getting into tracking with my girl and we really like it. I learned to use liver or fish juice since here in FL the fireants eat the damned bait before the track is seasoned LOL. I'd never have figured that out for myself. I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks after all.|