German Shepherd Dog > Hock walker? (326 replies)
by Felloffher on 26 June 2012 - 00:47
|My ideal GSD first and foremost is a dog that can traverse any environment with confidence and bomb-proof nerves regarless of what they encounter. I like hard dogs, that posses a high level of fight, prey and hunt drive, coupled with a strong desire to work. A high degree of intellegence with the ability to learn and retain what is being taught. My ideal GSD (both male & female) are on the smaller end of the standard, I find these dogs are far more agile and athletic and I believe their smaller size will contribute to a longer working career. Color isn't important as long as it is correct. The dog should have moderate angulation, with a compact, dry structure. The dog should not only look solid, it should be solid in every aspect of it's movement.|
It wont' come as a suprise my goal is to breed working dogs. My philosophy on breeding is fairly simple (not that producing the perfect dog is), to start there are two things I won't compromise on when selecting dogs for breeding or for future breeding.
I will not make any exceptions after giving a dog or pup a fair adjustment period if they display any signs of fear or shyness in situations such as crowds, traffic, strange surfaces, dark buildings to name a few or if a dog has any sensitivity to sounds like gunfire, thunder or any other noises for that matter. This means truly challanging the dog with new situations, not a set routine the dog or pup will get used to and honestly evaluating the dogs performance. I think using this criteria alone would wash many dogs currently being used for breeding.
IMO the only way to achieve my goal is to start will solid stock and try to make small improvements in subsequent generations, rather than trying to breed dogs that are severly deficient to begin with. This also means working the dogs and constantly evaluating them. Breeders should be their own worst critic when it comes to selecting dogs from their own program and should have the balls to wash a dog regardless of the amount of time spent raising and training them.
Time will tell, but I believe I'm off to a good start.
by Blitzen on 26 June 2012 - 00:57
Great goals, Felloffher. Good luck with your breeding program. I'm with you as far as proofing dogs prior to using them for breeding. I try to do that too in my own way.
by Felloffher on 26 June 2012 - 01:44
You have to realize your golden middle is only seen from the perspective of people in your camp. You've taken a working line and altered it's confirmation to suit the needs of the AKC show ring. Let's be honest, your ASL could have been bred to my wife's Min Pin and it would have improved working ability. You really haven't achieved anything as significant as you would like us to believe. It's all smoke and mirrors, a cheap sales pitch in an attempt to lure buyer your way. Hopefully most educated buyers can see through the BS.
by Felloffher on 26 June 2012 - 01:50
I like what I'm seeing so far, but I will measure success based on what I produce in the next couple of generations.
by vonissk on 26 June 2012 - 02:42
|OMG is that the best you can do saying I have to have people in my camp all the time to be what I am. I don't think so. I agree with what you said about soft nerves and all of that. I don't want that either and I would only breed the best and the most stable to produce what I wanted. I would never breed just to sell puppies--in fact I have been in the breed for 26 yrs and I am just now getting ready for my 6th litter.When I breed it is to keep something back and also to hopefully have a SAR pup for a donation. So man I have been watering them down, pumping them out and depositing those checks. I don't have to lie to anyone to sell a dog. In fact I just took a deposit from a lady who wants a dog for competition OB. Yes she has talked to several people, yes she has had working dogs before from a name brand kennel and she didn't like them because they were too extreme. In fact I bet if you check out all the shelters and rescues there are just as many if not more work8ing dogs for rehoming then SL. Why? This is where it gets good--talk about people who deceive--average family gets a working dog, figures out pretty quick it is way way too much dog for them, breeder refuses to work with them so the dog goes to the shelter/rescue/pound/put down. Poor puppy and the breeder knew he was doing them a disservice. Also let's go back in history--the original dogs were bred for HERDING. How many of those ruff and tough hard hitting extreme grippers would you turn in with a pen of sheep? Well I know very few that I would. I have a WL/DDR boy that I feel like would take a sheep down and that would be it.........they're supposed to be a versitile breed. And by the way the AKC would never put our boy up because he looks too much like WL.................I will also tell you this the lines we have that we are working with are like 12 generations of my mentor's breeding so I would say she is well over the see what happens in a couple of generations. It's working for us. You are just totally agqainst the SL and that's fine but hell have the balls to say so. Don't sit here and tell me how off base I am because not only do you not know me, you don't know my dogs. And until you do there's really no reason to talk to me like I am a money grubbing evil BYB. And all this closed mind bs is simply that. One more thing is that if some of the people out here were so in love with the breed as they say they are then it seems to me they would want to be helping the breed.................|
Blitzen while ago I had a brain fart and said give Barb a hug and I know it was Bev............DUH. Thanks for the encouragement and I hope we do real well too on Friday. I was interested in this topic and then in hollering at you and Gustav. But now it's time to go again. Arguing with closed minds and trying to just get them to open their eyes a little is useless. Later gater.......
by Blitzen on 26 June 2012 - 02:45
|Felloffher, I have to take exception with your analysis of Vonissk and her goals. I know her to be a very honest and ethical person who would never "sales pitch" anyone to buy one of her dogs. When she breeds, she breeds for herself and all other puppies are already spoken for. |
Her goals may not be your goals, but it's really not fair to suggest that her motives are less than noble because she breeds for a dog that can work in different venues and compete in the show ring. I do the same thing and it's probably not any easier than training a competitive sport dog.
by Ibrahim on 26 June 2012 - 07:26
|Most show line breeders are avoiding introducing work blood into their programs because of the very small market for resultant puppies and because it will take time to get back lost type, therefore I don't think Vonissk is after sales when she does mix her show with work blood, I personally find her courageous and honest in her goals.|
I have seen a dog bred by Fellofher in a recent thread, very nice in conformation and shows very good drives and bite work, if all what he breeds are near to the conformation of that dog, I personally appreciate what he's producing.
I think all what Fellofher says about temperament, drives and work ability is the truth, only thing he jumps over the conformation, " moderate angulations", what is that term?
Angulations are set and defined and are part of what GSD should be like, extremes in drives and extremes in angulations is not what the standard calls for, therefore I see Vonissk is closer to the standard than others and her golden middle is what versatile means. I think it was (Gustav) but pardon me if I am mistaken, who once said that from a good breeding there will be some puppies good as pets, some good for police, some for SAR etc.
Is a breeding where most puppies are excellent for sport a good breeding!!!!! just wondering
by Blitzen on 26 June 2012 - 12:21
|It's one thing to not like and/or to disagree with breeding a specific line or type of GSD, but to make it a personal attack on the ethics of a person one has never even met is just wrong. Will we ever get over thinking on this board that it's our way or the highway? |
by Sunsilver on 26 June 2012 - 12:42
|Kind of reminds you of another thread on this section of the board, doesn't it, Blitzen? When I saw Fell's post, bashing Vonisk's choice, it really upset me. I think I'm done with this board for awhile, but before I go, I have to take exception to Fell's sarcastic comment that breeding a miniature pinscher to an ASL would improve the temperament.|
I saw a wonderful documentary on Dogs With Jobs last night, about a GSd who was trained to do SAR. His handler is a woman, who's no longer young. She looked like she was pushing 60. They worked quakes in both Mexico and Turkey, and the dog, Petro, had live finds in both quakes, as well as indicating the location of numerous bodies. In Mexico, he kept insisting there was someone alive down there, even 10 days after the quake. His handler listened to him, and they eventually found two women, still alive, buried in the rubble.
So, what's so interesting about that? Just a good GSD doing his job, right?
Well, yes, except Petro is obviously an American show line.
Take the goddamn blinders off, will you? You claim to like working dogs, but I'm quite sure you wouldn't even give this one a second glance!
by Blitzen on 26 June 2012 - 12:55
|It kinda reminds me of many posts on this board, Sunsilver. The bullying here really gets old fast. I've known Vonissk personally for quite a while now and if others knew things about her I know, they would be ashamed to see her ethics called into question. It's never enough to just say - I don't like GSL's, ASL's because.........and list some factual information for discussion. It always has to lead to this. I won't even talk about my dog here very often due to her pedigree although she has German and AKC titles and is in training for more. I know I'm not the only member here who feels that way.|
by joanro on 26 June 2012 - 12:57
|Vonissk, in answer to your question, "how many of those ruff and tough hard hitting extreme grippers would you turn in with a pen of sheep?" : probably the same ones that let family kids climb all over them. Just to make clear to you, being a sport dog does not exclude being suitable for any thing else. That's not to say that, just like there are show dogs that are only capable of functioning in the show ring, some sport dogs are useless off the competition field. But, commenting on Ibrahim's question, is a breeding where most of the puppies are excellent for sport a good breeding? Absolutely!! Especially when they have exemplary temperaments,structure, intelligence to complement their balanced drives.|
by Blitzen on 26 June 2012 - 13:17
|Nicely put, Joanro. Your opinion without being condenscending.|
by joanro on 26 June 2012 - 13:42
|Yeah, Blitz, I have a horrible back ache again today so didn't have the umph for condescension :(|
by Blitzen on 26 June 2012 - 13:58
I'm feeling a bit crabby myself
by beetree on 26 June 2012 - 14:52
|Blitzen, you think you are crabby? I thought it was Felloffher who is always crabby! LOL |
Joanro, sorry to hear about your back pain, that would make me crabby!
I am not feeling at all crabby, however, LOL
Vonissk, you rock!
by vonissk on 26 June 2012 - 15:16
|Good Morning, everybody. Wow thanks for the positive comments. I said I wasn't going to say anything else but since reading all the comments I just had to.|
First Jonaro thank you for your explanation about the sport dogs and herding. I hope you don't think I am trying to bash the wl because I'm not. I was sharing what I personally know. And I am glad to know there are wol, among many others, that still retain that versitility.
We all have our preferences regarding lines and types. But not liking something for myths and what Joe Blow down the block said rather than an educated answer is a crock--thank you Blitzen for the same comment. I too have my preferences but I prefer to keep my comments to myself or only to discuss them with my mentor because that way I know they go no farther and start a big mess.
And Mr Ibrahim, you and I have never talked, but I have a lot of respect for you because you are always researching and wanting to learn more and more. I learn a lot from your posts and the things you bring up and getting discussions going. I thank you for seeing through the fog to what kind of person that I am.
And Sun you and I have agreed to disagree at times but only because we have our preferences and that only makes us human not monsters. That show you were talking about? I can get that here and when I remember I flip over there because it has some good stuff on it. Thanks for sharing the story of Petro and all I can say is WooHoo. Not so much because he is ASL and I think they are all great. Nope not that at all--it's more because I know there are many ASL that can and do work and the more that is brought out the better it is that people see that and they're not all hock walking nervous dingbats.
I have owned every type there is and I love them all. I think it was Blitzen once said in a post that every type has something they can bring to the table. And I definately agree with that==it just takes a little research. Anyone can look at a pedigree and get all excited about how many titles are here and there and health certifications and all that. But until you know the dogs then all that means very little. Talk to people who have been around a long time and personally knew this dog or that dog and how they really were. Some of us weren't around or into it deep enough or not running in the right circles to know about this one or that one. I know many many people started with SL and then went to the working lines when they got tired of the politics and what was going on with the breed. I always do things backwards--I started with WL--my first mentor was a K9 LEO. And then when I bought my WL boy I knew they were putting his type up in UKC and I decided I wanted to go that direction a while. I like showing but like everything else it's not the end all. It's fun, I've met a lot of nice people but in the same token it's also political and sometimes the judges make you wonder have they ever read the standard and did they understand what they were reading if they did.
Anyway I have rambled long enough and I have to get around and do some things today. Everybody have a good day and once again thank you.
by kitkat3478 on 26 June 2012 - 15:49
|Vonissk- your dogs are beautiful, and I believe more like you are needed. I wish you would stick around and be heard more often. Anyone that has read your posts in the past know you are passionate about your dogs (and others). There really should be enough room, more importantly, RESPECT, for everyone that has a goal that includes the betterment of the breed. German Shepherds are a versatile, noble respected breed of dog. They gained that respect in the US in the years they were viewed as service dogs. Is there really only one acceptable validation of worth for the ENTIRE breed?|
by Keith Grossman on 26 June 2012 - 16:22
|"Well, yes, except Petro is obviously an American show line."|
ASL dogs are descendants of ancestors who were all temperament tested and breed surveyed at one time so it only makes sense that some would have inherited some degree of working ability despite not having been bred for it. That notwithstanding, how are you so sure that this is "obviously" an American show line dog?
by Sunsilver on 26 June 2012 - 17:51
|1) Because the program SAID it was an American shepherd, and|
2) You REALLY think I'm so clueless that I can watch a dog work for 15 minutes and NOT recognize it is an American SL??
I did try to find more info on where the dog was from, but had no luck. Would be interesting to know who bred it.
by Keith Grossman on 26 June 2012 - 18:22
|"1) Because the program SAID it was an American shepherd, and..."|
The program, produced in Canada, referred to the dog as and American German Shepherd. I'm pretty sure that they were referring to where the dog lives, not its bloodlines...lol...
"2) You REALLY think I'm so clueless that I can watch a dog work for 15 minutes and NOT recognize it is an American SL??"
Not necessarily but I've been fooled. Did it have a head like a collie?
"I did try to find more info on where the dog was from, but had no luck. Would be interesting to know who bred it."