German Shepherd Dog > Hock walker? (326 replies)
by Blitzen on 11 June 2012 - 15:53
|An effortless gait is certainly not the only thing needed by a tending dog, but without it I have to question how much being able to turn on a dime will really matter.|
by Markobytes on 11 June 2012 - 16:31
|Abby, Great article and one that we all should take to heart. I have seen some indication that the SV has improved somewhat since this article was written. I do not see the angulations getting more extreme, the tide has changed a little. I also believe the time is right for working lines to return to the ring. Their very presence will demand attention and go far in correcting some of what was written about.|
As an aside, my V rated sable bitch can turn on a dime.
by darylehret on 11 June 2012 - 16:38
Already mentioned in the original standard during Max's time, "The length of the body should exceed the shoulder height of the dog. Short-coupled and long-legged dogs should be discarded." But there is NO MENTION of "ground covering".
Show breeding for more extreme angulations caused problems with reach on square or taller dogs, and so longer body lengths curtailed that. A wild wolf would have less endurance and efficiency with that kind of angulation as well.
by mollyandjack on 11 June 2012 - 17:03
|I wasn't referring to V-rated structure.|
by Markobytes on 11 June 2012 - 17:32
|Wild wolves show a range of conformation, many appear to have a longer leg to body ratio than a GSD. Most appear to have a straight back, some appear to even have a roach. The fronts are definitely not like a Malinois or an ill bred GSD with no front but more like a properly angled working line or conformation dog. Some pictures show wolves with long, sloping croups.|
by Markobytes on 11 June 2012 - 17:34
|Molly and Jack,|
I really appreciated your comments and do agree with your posts, an over angulated dog will not easily turn on a dime.
by mollyandjack on 11 June 2012 - 17:53
|Thanks, Markobytes. I just wanted to make it clear that I don't really have a concern about V-rated structure ;-)|
by Abby Normal on 11 June 2012 - 18:00
|Blitzen I have never heard that, but of course being in the UK, we hear little of what is happening in the US, other than what is heard here. What an extraordinarily enlighted approach. Is this to discourage from breeding extremes of angulation?|
I am guessing from what you say about those trying to return to a more moderate utilitarian breed that this would be the case.
I have in the past been ridiculed for championing moderation or middle of the road (and no doubt will be again!), as those people sneer that moderate is just settling for 'average' and I am sure that view may well apply from both sides of the fence, who wish not to lose anything from their present conformation. If both those sides met in the middle well.....as you say - not in our lifetimes. Maybe it should be a 3 way split. Show, work and universal GSD.
Markobytes, yes it is an interesting article, but I wish I could remember when the lecture took place. It has to be around 8 years ago, and I do think angulation has got worse since then, or at least I honestly do not see that any progress has been made to improve it, despite the SV only last year I believe mentioning it again as a cause for concern, and in this article the same problem was raised by the SV president in his annual report in 2002, as were back problems. So 10 years has passed and I really see no change in the deep overangulation from then to now.
by Blitzen on 11 June 2012 - 20:02
|Abby, I believe the intent is to encourage breeding a more moderate dog and to encourage judges to instruct handlers to "move your dog at a moderate speed, no racing around the ring". It is possible to finish a moderate dog in the AKC ring and a few are doing well as specials. Most AKC judges want to see a dog that does not "lift", it has to keep its feet close to the ground when moving out. Personally I think that's a good thing as that should eliminate dogs that overreach and/or crab due to too much angulation on either or both ends.|
If it were easy to breed good GSD's there would be more good ones . IMO this is a very challenging breed given there are so many expectations and so many different opinions on what a good GSD looks like. I sometimes cringe at photos I see here and on other breed boards but someone out there thinks they are great or they wouldn't be showing the world their photos. Personally I get hung up on those big bulky heads and overdone bodies, but many really like that and most of the big winners in Germany seem to look that way.
by Gustav on 11 June 2012 - 20:45
|I am fully cognizant that dialogue from me is not going to change the views of people invested in what they write. And that's Okay, I primarily write for many who lurk out there and may want to get into the breed or crave more knowledge. I am a big believer that for the next generation of GS folks, they have the intelligence to assess what they see and figure out where reality deviates from theory out in the real world. As they go to events, shows, see real working dogs, talk to trainers, see for themselves...they will find what they see in general that resonates with what is written on these boards. These people are the future, and we have to give them the information and examples for them to decide how they want to proceed for this breed. I must say that I have utmost respect for Markobytes, Abbey Normal, and Ibrahim, in terms of their insights. All of you have made we reexamine some of my foundation thinking as we never grow to old to learn. In particular I really have admiration for Abbey Normal who, IMO, has often made much more sense than many of his country folks no matter hold loud and caustic they are.|
People like Blitzen and Sunsilver, go back to the same foundation likes as i have. Times have changed, I haven't, not saying that's good or bad, but I know that some things improve with time and hopefully that holds true for this breed.
by marjorie on 12 June 2012 - 00:34
|---- > Quote by Eric Orschler of Von Batu Kennels and SV Breed Judge & Koermeister:|
“The fast, so-called 'flying gait' which is for example, shown at the Siegerschau at the end phase, is in fact unnatural. Unless with the influence of his handler, no dog will show this gait in nature.
I guess no one told that to Casey James (AKA Avion's Metolious of Pioneer Acres), as he does it on his own all the time, without a handler, as per pics I posted earlier in the thread. I am sorry but I find it hard to believe that proper movement and a ground covering gait are not an asset to the breed, especially in herding or even working as a police dog. I would think it would be most efficient.
The GSDCA needs to learn to practice what they preach, in relation to taking the emphasis off side gait. GSDS put up at Specialty shows are usually more extreme, whereas all breed show dogs are more balanced. An all breed style GSD would be hard pressed to win in the Specialty ring and vice versa. I dont think anything is wrong with a good sidegait, as I DO think it is functional. However, when that side gait is taken over by speed, and correct movement is lost in the the shuffle, that is when judging by side gait becomes destructive. I have seen ASL dogs advertised as having spectacular movement, when one look at the front of the dog shows the dog moving from the elbow, rather than the shoulder.Do most breeders know what correct movement is, and if they do, how can that be reconciled with advertising dogs with pics that show movement from the elbow, rather than the shoulder? Why would one wish to advertise INCORRECT movement? Size is also a problem in the ASL. Bigger is better, in the ASL ring. A 25-26 inch male will barely get a *look* from the judge. The judges all put up the larger *stallion* males.
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate
by Blitzen on 12 June 2012 - 01:53
A few breeder-judges will put up moderate dogs at specialties, not many. This year Helen Gleason is again doing the National, bitches I think, and I expect to see a standard sized WB that can move soundly at a moderate speed without "lifting". Temperament will be the first consideration, don't show her a dog that will shy away during the temperament test.
by Blitzen on 12 June 2012 - 01:57
|Gustav, don't underestimate your influence here. You have made a difference in my thinking many times and I doubt I'm the only SL owner who will say that.|
by Ruger1 on 12 June 2012 - 05:09
|I was researching some of the dogs mentioned and came across this thread..It is a couple years old, but appeared interesting..|
by Ibrahim on 12 June 2012 - 05:37
|Gustav, Aby and all the good friends on this thread|
As others are reading what we're writing and I'm one of those who learned a lot from this forum here are some facts I see necessary so I won't be part in misleading no one here:
I have no access to dogs as much as the other members here, in my place we have no clubs, no rings, no nothing indeed, yes it's so sad, I never and shall never claim I know better or know first hand facts about dogs.
I have a degree in civil engineering and I've been working in building and roads construction since 25 years. All my study and my career is based on scientific facts, rules, shedules etc. Time and cost are two major factors in construction success, quality of end product is what remains to tell about one's hard/sincere work.
When any talk is against science I just can't accept it as it can't be true, when talk is made against scientific logic I just can't swallow it, when correct theory is forced in the wrong application it is man's fault not science.I have nothing to prove to my personal benefit whether the Show or Wor kline is better, more useful or more correct, I love both and own both.
On this forum I have seen that the Work line enthusiasts are more vocal that I myself as a neutral enthusiast of both types find myself defending the Show.
So far I haven't seen anyone claiming the Show is perfect with no faults but on the other hand I've seen a few from the Work side who claim the Work line is perfect and refuse to listen and think. Some would confess some faults in drives like being extreme and things of the like, but I haven't seen anyone so far confessing that the general structure of today's work line is poor and does not match the breed standard. Oh the standard !!!!!! the standard is being criticized on this forum day and night and who does that ? mostly the work enthusiast.
One point is of great importance, sometimes a wrong-doer is presented to court, and due to lack of evidence he's set loose, but does that mean he's done nothing wrong?
A well versed person may superpass a poor versed one in a discusiion, does that mean he has the truth on his side?
Many times you find a new thread here about hock walking, loose rears, roach back, extreme back sloping and the like, some just keep bringing up those subjects to the limit that a new person on this forum would think, oh what the hell !!! this show dog is a joke, no one likes it, oh it is incorrect.....
That is just not fair, it's not fair to build up an image of faulty appearance and performance of the Show line, it is not.
The show dogs are not all with those faults, some of them have faults but it's not the usual, some are extreme with their structure but it's not the usual. The media here against the Show dog is tremendous and so powerful, I bet those who love the Show dog are even afraid to let those members know they have a show GSD less they will be slaughtered on this forum by some of the Work enthusiasts. Oh........!!!!! who is the stupid who will confess he finds the Show line appealing, good companion, good with my children !!!!!!
Oh.......... I better keep my mouth shut so no one finds out I have a Showline line GSD and better ask questions via the PM so X member will not make me look so bad on the forum.
by Ibrahim on 12 June 2012 - 05:52
|In the standard most if not all what is written about movement and structure is pure science and to me it is just that, scientific facts, whether you like it or not.|
Comparison should be scientific so, at least I, can be convinced. Do not compare performance of a well structured Show dog with poor drives, low stamina and weak heart to a poor structured Work dog with excellent drives, high stamina and strong heart and tell me the Wl performed better because it's structure is better !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Correct comparison should have fixed elements with only one variable element so we can see the effect of this difference in this specific element between both the dogs.
I have been working on some drawing using the autocad ( a software we use for engineering drawings) to post them in the thread ( Mr. Donald asked me a difficult question on the conformation forum) I will use two of those drawing to demonstrate some of what the standard says about efficient movement.
by Ibrahim on 12 June 2012 - 07:08
|I will make the post when I figure how to make them into picture format|
by Gustav on 12 June 2012 - 11:31
|Ibrahim, Your last post makes me sad, if these are the conclusions you draw from the dialogue. I will kindly point out this contradiction and then leave you to your thoughts if the above is what you perceive people are thinking. Having given us your acknowledged limited access to shows,events, many,many, German Shepherds, I find it difficult to understand how you can have an informed opinion on this breed in terms of the sweeping generalizations you have made. You cannot get the flavor of understanding the nuances of much of what we are discussing without practical experience. Many of the people posting have seen thousands and thousands of German Shepherds of all lines and in many different venues. Little secret, at one point from 2000 to 2010, I went to the Seiger Show in the United States every time it was on East Coast. I was in a Sch club for 7years that was formed, catered to, and possessed primarily SL dogs. I think many SL people don't speak out because much of what is being said is factual or what they have seen also, they just choose to accept it to have what they prefer. I have never ever heard anyone say the WL are perfect. Not once, but many do feel that they are closer to what the breed should be than what the SL's are. There are concrete reasons for this, not based on pictures,, or beauty. You will find that people who train guide dogs, Search and Rescue dogs, law enforcement dogs, herding dogs, really don't care WHAT line the dogs come from. They care about the performance the dog renders. There is a lack of representation of the SL in any venue except show ring and family pet. That is a FACT. You are a civil engineer, ( I was CEO of a general aviation airport for 18 years, and my Engineer was vital to airport operations and planning). I have laid out scientific genetic information in terms of genetic back massing to support the conclusions and recommendations made about the conditions of the SL. I would expect a person of your background to appreciate the effects of breeding the same narrow lines and color for an extende period of time. What results is natural unless deviation is infused for balance. I respect your right to FEEL the way you do, but I am baffled how you arrive at the conclusions that there is a big hatefest against SL based on people being pro WL. Some people still want to see this breed functional, the SL have fallen behind in functionality, there are mental and physical reasons for this that can be explained factually, anecdotally. this leads people to not accept the premise that a pretty stanced, pretty side gaining , that does not transfer to functionality in today's world, simply is not correct.|
by Blitzen on 12 June 2012 - 12:09
|Thanks for that link, Ruger. I haven't had time to read much of it yet, but seeing that OP was Preston, one of my favorite GSD people makes me very interested. Sadly the politics here have driven him away and he seldom returns to share with us his great insight into the breed and knowledge. Another loss to this board due to meansprited conduct of those who do because they can.|
Gustav, I understand where Ibrahim is coming from since there is a handful of the same posters here who seem like they just can't wait to insert some snarky remarks about SL's every chance they get. Thanks to your good advice I have pretty much learned to ignore that and consider the sources, especially when they are people who have never titled a GSD or trained a GSD in their lives or who obviously have a vendetta against every SL. They do spoil a good learning session for many of us. With your advice I've leaned to get past being so sensitive and I think that Ibrahim will be able to do that in time too. I believe you once told me I took everything personally and you were right, I did but not anymore. Thanks !
by Sunsilver on 12 June 2012 - 12:57
|Gustav, I am SO glad you posted that link! I've been trying to remember where I got those really old pictures of GSDs and other breeds of dogs. The link to the book, which was published in 1915, is on the first page of that thread!|
Lots of good info in the thread, too!