German Shepherd Dog > Buying a GSD puppy - need input (53 replies)
Buying a GSD puppy - need input
by Ladyluck1120 on 19 May 2012 - 05:25
|Hi, I am looking to buy a GSD puppy from a breeder on Washington. Male pup and he's about 10 weeks old. Dam is a V SchH1, and sire is a schH3 KKL1 from Germany - and the price Is $3500. I do not know a lot about theses abbreviations and what they mean, other than status and types of champions. Looking for any feedback from others who are more familiar in the arena of GSD, bloodlines, titles, in relation to prices. I am told this particular male dog is a definately breed dog and the stud of the litter. I'm pretty emotionally involved in this, and am looking to get the puppy next week..however, I do want to make sure I'm not being taking advantage of, since I am not experienced in this. Looking for any input.|
by Hundmutter on 19 May 2012 - 09:44
|What is actually much more important in buying a puppy - than whether the parents have completed their Schutzhund trials, levels I to III in Obediance, Tracking and Protection, or whether they have been graded well in Breed Conformation Shows, the 'V' rating - is whether the parents are as healthy as the breeder can get them, and therefore how well the puppies are protected against genetic diseases. That is what its worth paying high prices for, IMO. And you've told us nothing about that side of things. You need to be asking to see paperwork that confirms the parents have been tested for the state of their hip and elbow joints, as a minimum. You need to know whether the breeder guarantees to replace the pup and/or refund your money, should the puppy turn out to have e.g. Hip Dysplasia. You need to find out whether any problems attach to the breeder providing you with the registration papers in reasonable time. If you want this pup as a potential Show Dog, be aware that it is still all as much down to luck and how you raise him whether he turns out to be suitable, as it is to the original breeding; even the best of breeders can only achieve / promise so much; if someone tries to tell you otherwise, be very suspicious. If you want to Work him in any dogsport (and GSDs should be given stuff to do, for their well-being, let alone your enjoyment) you'll need to be sorting out a Club or Trainer to take him to; you may need to do this for Ringcraft, anyway. Then that is where the fact that he's been bred from titled parents shows its worth.|
by starrchar on 19 May 2012 - 13:10
|$3500 sounds quite high to me. Great advice from Hundmutter. As Hundmutter said, health is of the utmost importance. Make sure the parents have been for DM tested, in addition to the hips and elbows. Ask if there are allergies, EPI, epilepsy, pannus, AF, arthritis, cardiac or any other known health issues in the bloodlines. Also, make sure the pup is the right match for you as far as temperament, energy and drives. What do you want to do with this pup? Do you want a family pet or do uou want him for sport or show? I hope this helps a little. I wish you the best with your future puppy. Please do your homework.|
by guddu on 19 May 2012 - 13:36
|Even if you are planning to seriously compete at the shows, or in Sch, 3500$ is way too expensive. For that price, i would go to Germany, have a weeks vacation and bring back a decent dog.|
by Bhaugh on 19 May 2012 - 16:03
|Hundmutter offered some great advise. $3500.00 is OUTRAGEOUS and as it was mentioned you could fly to Germany for that. You should be able to get a healthy well bred pup for about $1500.00. I'm curious to know where this breeder is as my mom was talking to me last week about a breeder in Snohomish who places pups with law enforcement. My comment to her was SO WHAT. You can find a nice pup, fly to see the pup, fly back with pup and still have money left over for training, crate and food.|
Keep looking. If your set on price then buy a teen and that way you will know EXACTLY what your getting with hip scores to boot.
by aceofspades on 19 May 2012 - 17:04
|There isn't an 8 week old puppy on the planet worth $3500.00. Even from the best parents. If I was paying $3500 I would expect an older puppy with a good start on training. Like 6 months plus who already has a good foundation on OB training under him. 8 weeks old is a crapshoot and even the best parents can produce poor puppies. You've been give. Great advice here. My only addition is don't rush in to a purchase. Learn abOut the breed, learn about the difference in show lines and workin lines (honestly they should be considered two seperate breeds) learn what YOU like and them go from there.|
by Ladyluck1120 on 19 May 2012 - 17:30
|You have all giving great input and advice, thank you. I will be the first to admit, I am a novice at this, and didn't know what questions to ask. From your comments, I now have a list of questions to ask the breeder. Hips ans Elbows tests of the pup and parents, any known allergies or health problems in the bloodline, and any guarantees from the breeder, if this comes to pass. I live in a different state than the breeder, and my husband is flying there next week to meet the breeder and the puppy, and if all goes well - bring our puppy home. Since this pup is the Stud of the litter, the breeder wanted to make sure it was placed with someone who wouldn't be getting him fixed, as he would be a good stud for breeding purposes, and there's a few females in our state who would be a good combination for breeding. I am confused about "the working line vrs the show line" - can you explain that piece? And, what is IMO? Is that the hip and elbow tests? If all the testing has been done on the pup, the parents and history of bloodline and health in previous generations is up to par, is that worth spending the high cost? My intentions on the GSD is a family pet, using as a stud for breeding, and implementing a lot of training to reach his highest potential - wherever that takes us. Thank you all for your replies and input, it is very educating for me, and I have an awful lot to learn.|
by JodyP on 19 May 2012 - 18:09
|you can not tell at 10 weeks of age if a puppy will be suitable for breeding.. $3500 is very very high price for a puppy.. I would rethink this venture.. |
by aceofspades on 19 May 2012 - 19:17
|The pups won't have their hips and elbows tested as prelims can not be done until about a year and actual certification not until two years. This is why a pupoy is a crapshoot because you really don't know until 12-24 months what they will become.
IMO- in my opinion
Puppy would be pick puppy not stud puppy :0). Even pick puppy isn't worth a higher price since at 8 weeks there is ZERO ability to tell if the dog will pair well with any specific adult female, not only that but it is impossible to even tell if that pupoy will even be suitable fOr breeding. No way at all. If they are telling you this you are being fed a line and if you believe it you need to take a step back and learn a bit more about the breed and what breeders are out there. Also her pick puppy and your pick puppy may be polar opposites. I had a Shepherd that I got 15 years ago that in MY opinion was pick puppy. He was EVERYTHING I would choose in a puppy. He was the 7th sold puppy out of a litter of 9. Clearly to the other 6 people he was not pick puppy.
You said your husband is flying out to see the puppy next week. You should be asking all of these questions before spending the time and money to go out and see the puppies. Do the dogs do anything? Schutzhund, herding, agility, dock diving, AKC showering??? Or are they JUST breeding dogs. Do you know the name of the mother and father of tw litter? Are they listed here on the database? If they are can you post them so we can see the pedigrees?
Showline vs working line. Working line has minimal angulation and a nice strong straight back. Show lines have an often overly angulated his quarters and a roach back (convex arch) and they sometimes walk fairly far back on the hocks and can look like they are trying to take a crap for lack of a better description. Well bred showlines aren't too angulated but some lines have such extreme roaching and angulation it looks horrible. When you see a side by side cOmparasin of the two you can immediately tell the difference. I'm on my phone so I can't post pics so maybe someone will be kind enough to do that.
by Ladyluck1120 on 19 May 2012 - 19:39
|Here are the names of the mother and father. Sire: Oxford vom Radhaus SchH3, KKL1, and Dam: Finny vom Finkenschlag V, SchH1|
by Ladyluck1120 on 19 May 2012 - 19:50
|I did not know you are not able to determine if any hip problems until 1-2 years. Now I understand why puppies are a crap shoot, and as a result - $3500 seems crazy in that respect. Meaning, i wont know of issues for a year or two, no way to tell now if he'd be a good Stud for breeding, so I only can go on - he will be a family pet to love, train, and have a loyal companion and protector, I am committed to the dog I bring into my family, and problems or not, I would love him just the same and stand by him. Which then leads me back to the price, which seems like its crazy high and highly risky..|
by Ladyluck1120 on 19 May 2012 - 19:59
|The Breeder isn't trying to just push me to buy one of his puppies though, as he did state if I was only looking for a family pet only - he did give me another Breeders name, where the price was half of what he was charging. He also asked many questions about my home life to make sure I had plenty of time to spend with the dog, so that tells me - he isn't totally focused on making money, and that he does love his dogs. Just wanted to note that.|
by starrchar on 19 May 2012 - 20:25
|The puppy you're looking at comes from German Showlines. There are a number of threads on this board to read about the difference.|
I checked out the parents on this database and the info you provided on the dogs (titles) didn't match up with what is on here, but it is possible the info hasn't been updated.
If this breeder knows you want him for a family companion and protector, then selling this "pick" or "stud" puppy so he can be bred in the future doesn't even make sense. A reputable breeder would want the pup "proven" before breeding. It takes a lot of money, training and time to get a dog to where he is proven breed worthy. Who is going to do this and pay for it? I think this breeder knows you are a novice and seem to be taking advantage. I'd personally look elsewhere. As mentioned before, to pay $3500 is an awful lot to pay for any puppy.
I'm sure there must be some reputable breeders in your state. Ask here on this board and you'll probably get some good feedback.
by starrchar on 19 May 2012 - 20:28
|If this breeder isn't focused on making money, why is he charging more than double the price of other breeders (who are breeding the same quality) for his puppies? Make an offer of $1500 and see what he says.|
by Bhaugh on 19 May 2012 - 20:51
|Starchar I don't agree to try and negociate with a breeder. If a buyer isnt happy with the price then find another breeder. I think it's insulting for a buyer to think that barganing for a lower price is the right thing to do. Ive had buyers try it with me. At that point, I no longer will even consider dealing with them.|
by Bhaugh on 19 May 2012 - 21:07
|Now that more information has come out, sorry ladyluck1120 but the idea that you will just "breed him to females in your area" makes me question your intent as well. Would you be trying to recoup some of what you paid out? Breeding takes so much more than just puting two dogs together and while your here to ask questions to see if your doing the right thing, I would ask you the same question with the intent to buy this dog in the first place.|
I would like for the breeder to come forward and comment on this thread. Never mind the price issue. As we all know there are 3 sides to every story...
by GSDPACK on 19 May 2012 - 21:13
Showline dogs, she lives in Idaho, she will take care of you and the prices are not ridiculous. She knows her dogs. Talk to her and see what she has to say. Good luck
by starrchar on 19 May 2012 - 21:18
|Point well taken Bhaugh. That said, my guess is that you ask reasonable prices for your pups.|
PLease let me explain where I am coming from though. Years ago my husband and I bred, trained and showed horses. I had no problem with people asking if I would take less for a horse and I never felt insulted. Many times I did take less than the asking price if the quality of the home that was going to be provided was a very good one. There were also times I refused to sell a horse to someone willing to pay the asking price because I knew the life the horse would have. Admittedly I was not a good business person in that respect, I guess. The bottom line for me was that the horse went to the right home and that was more important to me than anything else. LL stated that this person was not about the money and that is why I suggested to offer less.
by Ladyluck1120 on 19 May 2012 - 21:20
|Thank you all for your information, all helpful with questions I need to ask. I do understand the price is very high, and I do not know what I am getting, as a pup, and I'm taking a big risk; however, my husband and I, have decided we are getting this puppy. Maybe we're crazy to spend that kind of money, but if all checks out in bloodline health records - although no guarantee our pup will be perfectly healthy, but will be good indicators of likelihood - that pup will be ours, for better or worse. Weighing all the information I have gathered from the posts on here, I have a much better understanding of my risks with a puppy, and if we are willing to lay it on the line and trust our gut - in spite of the risks and much higher cost for this pup, we at least know what we are getting into and downfalls. Only time will tell. No matter what, I will love this dog as part of my family.|
by Bhaugh on 19 May 2012 - 21:21
|Thats a good point! I have given dogs away to good homes as money is never the thing for me. Maybe it should be Im always in the hole.|