German Shepherd Dog > 6 Month Old--Weak Rear (99 replies)
by Ibrahim on 18 May 2012 - 21:43
|You must have noticed that I refrained from giving opinion and or advice on your puppy as this is a serious thing and still I'm not giving opinion or advice but I thought I should mention this case as the way your puppy looks reminds me of a male puppy which was imported from Germany at 2 months age and was very healthy and of very good conformation/ no over angulation, after two weeks he lost appetite and had bloody diaherea and vomiting and was diagnosed with Parvo, he was hospitalized for a week and when he came out he was so skinny and looked extremely angulated and roached. I think something was damaged in his intestines and he was never able to digest and absorb the contents of food he was given like a normal pup would and did not grow in a normal rate and his movement was awkward. This is how he looked at 4.5 months.|
by swingfield on 18 May 2012 - 22:46
|Poor baby Ibrahim..! gosh Parvo is such a cruel disease and always leaves them almost worse than before.. ! I hate seeing the positive tests that come through the clinic I work at.. it is heartbreaking.. there is nothing going on upstairs anymore.. the lights are on but no one is home.. Some seem to be 'fine' on the outside.. but...|
by yellowrose of Texas on 18 May 2012 - 22:53
Do you have the puppies VET records before you bought him. IF not get the vets name who saw this pup for shots or anything ,,, CHeck TO SEE if this pup was treated for anything other than worms and shots before you picked him up.
YOU are entitled to vet records on a dog you bought..JUST ask the breeder for the vets name to get his first records sent to your now vet...reasonable request with no accusations..that will clear up one question for sure.
by CMGSD on 19 May 2012 - 06:15
|Spine was viewed by an expert, not the vet. |
Breeder was feeding TotW and Nature's Variety I believe, mixed with other stuff. She's very anti-supplementing. I have all of my dog's vet records (I got him at 8 weeks and he only saw one vet before mine). The one thing that ever happened to him was coccidia. I'm going through old photos right now.
5 months is when people started noticing problems.
Now, I have copies of the x-rays and they look find to me. The description of the dog with parvo hints that this could just be because of him not eating enough (nutrition etc). I think what needs to be done is I need to wait on the PennHIP and give his new diet a chance.
For now, anyone have any input on the pictures of him when he was 2-4 months?
by Jenni78 on 19 May 2012 - 11:48
|I'd love to know which ToTW formula, as that's exactly what the similar case was eating, which is why I started ranting about people not looking at what is in the food they are feeding! You can't feed ToTW adult to large breed puppies. Even their own vet states that! The fact that it's a lower quality grain-free, made by Diamond, infused with many artificial and synthetic vitamins/minerals doesn't help. A dog's body (or a human's, for that matter) simply canNOT metabolize these the same way they can in their natural form. There have been studies showing that certain breeds have different capabilities for metabolizing/utilizing them as well. This is why some breeds might be fine on a food containing inappropriate levels of crucial minerals and some won't. Is the resulting skeletal abnormality genetic? Well, sure, in a way, BUT it's the environment that is causing the manifestation of the problem. I think it's easier to change the way you feed a dog than change the way an entire breed metabolizes calcium, for example. JMO. |
If the breeder hasn't been feeding that for too long and she keeps at it, I'll bet your pup won't be the only one like this. Obviously, there's a genetic predisposition to these issues, coupled with her feeding plan...recipe for disaster. I wonder what the bitch was fed during pregnancy. Thankfully she doesn't believe in supplementation!
by Rik on 19 May 2012 - 12:54
|Ibrihim, GSD at 8 weeks or so are still fairly uniform in body proportions and have not yet become "stagie", as show people put it. This is just referring to how different parts of the pup may develop at differing rates. You see pups with ears you think they will never grow into, they may go high in the rear and the rear is often the biggest area of concern and look the most out of whack.|
I guess I said that to say parvo, no doubt caused weakening and muscle loss in the puppy. While that can affect the puppy's ability to control it's body, it did not contribute to over angled or roach or length of bones in rear.
by Hundmutter on 19 May 2012 - 14:46
|cmgsd - re input on these 'new' pics of him when younger - don't laugh, but can you post a picture of him with his litter brother, please - either then or now ? For comparison. I've recalled something about where I've seen that 'look' before, but don't want to say anything firmer until I can be sure. Thanks.|
by swingfield on 19 May 2012 - 17:12
|Please bear with me on this line of thought.. I am old Vet tech back from the day of being an Animal Health technician.. when I lived in California .. I worked for a very prestigious clinic and saw and gorgeous show line Shepherd (import) around the age of 6 months old, came in with similar clinical symptoms, and after a lengthy exam.. blood and stool work up, xrays.. the vet had sent this pup to Davis where it was diagnoses with "Rickets".. wow!! I had only seen 2 cases in my whole life and.. there was a 'strange' look about them both.. Some sort of auto immune disorder along with a certain lack of nutrition and a salmonella introduced dog food.. Poof.. the dog went down hill from there.. I feel sorry for this little fella.. please dont take this wrong.. I just wanted to help and hopefully he will start getting better soon and all is for naught on this post!! regards..Sherry|
this from the Merck Vet Manual ..
The characteristic lesions of rickets are failure of both vascular invasion and mineralization in the area of provisional calcification of the physis. This pathology is most obvious in the metaphyses of the long bones. There may be a wide variety of clinical signs, including bone pain, stiff gait, swelling in the area of the metaphyses, difficulty in rising, bowed limbs, and pathologic fractures. On radiographic examination, the width of the physes is increased, and the nonmineralized physeal area is distorted. In advanced cases, angular limb deformity can be seen due to asynchronous bone growth.
by Ibrahim on 19 May 2012 - 18:48
|Sherry, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us, keep it up please.|
Rik, thanks for the info, actually I was just sharing what I thought might be somewhat a similar case, I mean something wrong in the intestines, as a matter of fact I don't feel good at commenting on a serious request for advice, it's different than giving opinion on structure, in the latter no harm could be done to the dog or owner.
by Ibrahim on 19 May 2012 - 18:52
I'm curious what's on your mind, this puppy puzzles me
by CMGSD on 19 May 2012 - 18:57
|The only pictures I have of him with his brothers are at a month old. When I picked him up, his brothers were there, but they all looked the same to me. He's miles and miles away from his brother now. I've just seen photographs. |
His brother now:
by Jenni78 on 19 May 2012 - 21:42
|Parvo shouldn't affect them for that long afterwards, though. |
Above, the day he started eating after parvo. Below, 12 days later. The OP's pup has something else going on.
by yellowrose of Texas on 19 May 2012 - 21:52
| Diamond is the company I have preached for two years...do not buy anything made by diamond.|
read other thread about the inspections reports and this is not a new thing.. I think this pup has an absorption problem number 1..
Look at the huge difference in Litter mates....but also lets wait for the HIP reports...
I know you are weary and worried..and so are we.
This is not a normal pup nor is it a normal way he should be progressing..
Just keep him fed but do not push too much in him too fast...DOES he have a good appetite right now??
You made a statement about us RAW people saying or thinking Raw is a cure all...WELL , I am confident it is.
I had a male pup go home to Dallas...Son bought him for himself, left for college...before he left the dog was scratching, had hot spots every 6 months so he went to vet and vet said....change your dog food...but did not say Raw...son went to internet and did some research and by himself changed to a raw diet..His dog was 100 % a totally different dog in 3 months... Son left a freezer full of made up meals for his parents to feed. After a year at college, parents got transferred to CANADA.. they said cannot take the dog..
THEY brought him to me , with a freezer full of frozen meat and son emailed me his diet..HIS TEETH were shiny white, ears clean, coat shining and he had more energy , than a whirly bird on saturday night..
That dog is in Caddo Mills now with a rancher and he thanks me every 7 months or so because of the excellent condition of this dog..
He still feeds him raw as he also raises cattle and fowl..
It does matter and it does supply your dog with NATURAL vit C , and other minerals you do not get in KIBBLE>
RAW is great but has same responsibility as dog kibble. MY boarding dog just came last week with a bag of stinky dog food...& you know why? It WAS RANSID...STUNK AND THE DATE WAS OUT.
Well known dog food from Petsmart....so you have to feed with your EYES WIDE OPEN no matter what you feed.
by yellowrose of Texas on 19 May 2012 - 22:02
| There are several things that contain calcium and not pills.|
fish, salmon, cottage cheese, yougurt. juice off of mustard greens and some veggies you eat., bones (raw)
to get the three kinds of calcium you have to feed FOOD not supplements.
SPREAD powdered milk on food, Knox gellatin on food...
All I can think of right this minute.
by Red Sable on 19 May 2012 - 22:24
|Hi CMGSD, I agree with those that said your pup is extremely angulated. I can see that in the 2.5 month pic. I don't believe it is what you are feeding, although, yes, he looks thin to me.|
All I've ever had is GSD's and have fed poor to good quality kibble, and have never had a dog look like that. IMHO it is genetic, and your pup got the short straw in that department.
Smiley and Rik pretty much said everything I was thinking.
All the best with him, I love the long coats! Keep us updated on his progress, I always love to see how these pups turn out when mature, we can all learn something from it. :)
by CMGSD on 20 May 2012 - 00:55
|I know dozens of dogs that get sick and have a ton of problems with raw. It is NOT a cure-all. |
His brother is being fed TotW. Viking is being fed CN.
I am going to repeat myself here... he was being UNDERFED. Stop assuming malabsorption problems when he was only eating half the amount he was supposed to. Let me keep upping the food before that. Yeah, malnutrition does show, because he wasn't eating enough, NOT because he has some sort of internal digestive illness. I think he really did get the short end of the straw genetically and I'm going to try to counter that with PT and lots of dog sports.
by Hundmutter on 20 May 2012 - 08:08
|CMGSD (and Ibrahim)|
Yes that current photo of the brother was enough; nice normal looking youngster.
Please don't jump down my throat and I'm really hesitant to suggest you spend even more money on this pup - but something I don't think you have mentioned so far, your Vet has not tested his PITUITARY output ?
I think you may have a dwarf on your hands.
I realise he's not a 'textbook' case; but occasionally dogs are suffering from under or over production of some hormone(s)
which gives them A DEGREE of the symptoms rather than the full-blown syndrome. If your improved feeding regime does not show some solid results, then certainly that would be the next thing I would look at if he were my puppy.
Swingfield - I really don't think this is Ricketts; we had an affected puppy, he was on Euk Puppy & Junior and it didn't suit him for some reason - littermates were fine; but he looked very different from this one.
by CMGSD on 20 May 2012 - 18:38
|Hundmutter that's very interesting and an important suggestion. It's something I will definitely look into. I'm grateful for any ideas that might help or give insight into what the problem could be, I just don't like when people get convinced it's a digestive issue after I specifically said I had been underfeeding him. |
Upping food takes a long time. We might be at 4 cups by the end of this week. Might. It will take at least a couple of weeks after he hits 4 cups to see any major difference or improvements. I think it'd be safe to say that, if by the end of June he hasn't started looking more his age or began improving, it would be worth another trip to the vet. This gives a lot of time for his development and a lot of time for the food to help with that. If nothing is determined I might just keep swimming him and re-visit the issue when he hits 1 year.
by Hundmutter on 20 May 2012 - 18:48
|Good luck, I have my fingers crossed for you however this turns out.|
by CMGSD on 20 May 2012 - 20:32
To discuss some other stuff, I am appalled with what breeders in my area (including my breeder) are doing. The WGSLs all have steeper than average croups. I compared the croups of my dog's parents to the croupes of a reputable breeder else where in the US and they are very close/similar (used photoshops protractor tool). The dogs look different though. Why? Because my breeder likes to have a very slopey topline in her dogs. The bitch is straighter, but the sire is just... too slopey. It gives a different look. I wonder if it's the slope causing it and not the croup. I also noticed there's a drastic difference between Viking's stack-like photos and the pictures where the problem is apparent. When he's not arching his spine, his croup is in the average range for showlines. When he is, his croup shoots up to around 40-45 degrees.
She is one of several breeders in the area who are apparently trying to incorporate this guy into their breeding program:
It's hard to watch, he moves so loosely. :(