German Shepherd Dog > WL + SL = BL??? (205 replies)
by nypiper127 on 17 May 2012 - 02:48
|Wasn't Darwin a big fan of abberations ??? Where would we be without them???|
by Gustav on 17 May 2012 - 11:40
|Not for Breeding!!!!lol|
by nypiper127 on 17 May 2012 - 12:54
|But knowledgeable breeding should be able to control and optimize the good "abberations" while "culling" the bad ones. |
by Gustav on 17 May 2012 - 18:01
|Seems like you have the answers....I'll be waiting to see the product....smile!|
by charlie319 on 17 May 2012 - 19:28
I brought Timo up not as an example of his working abilities, which are not in dispute, but to show that some sables have cracked the top ranks in the show ring and overcome the prejudices of many.
by charlie319 on 17 May 2012 - 19:32
|NYpiper, it used to be (in Germany) that when you went to register a litter, you'd get 5 registration applications... 8 pups, you could still only register 5. So, you had a choice. Sell the untitled dogs for a pittance, or cull them at birth... It is hard to predict at that stage which one will be a star or a dud.|
by Ibrahim on 17 May 2012 - 19:37
|Charlie319 it's a pleasure to the heartreading your posts and not less educating than those of Gustav"s or the other elder members, thank you for sharing your thoughts.|
by nypiper127 on 17 May 2012 - 22:33
I do not have all the answers....but I do know this...
"It is too much work" is NEVER a good answer.
by brynjulf on 17 May 2012 - 22:38
|I think Vandal is being bred to quite a few different WL females. It will be interesting to see what the resulting pups are like.|
by Gustav on 17 May 2012 - 23:11
|Charlie, I was using Timo as an example of color difference, and Gucci as the working example. Since Timo, who are the VA sable colored dogs that have been put up? And if there are none; then my point is in terms of color....he is the defender of the nonbias against sables by the apologists.|
NYpiper.....what most people are missing and many don't want to discuss is that people's likes are way too important in breeding decisions, as opposed to breeding needs. The SL dog is a systematic creation of forty years of people breeding for what they like instead of balance. You can't undo something that is 40 years in creating with some simple 2 or 3 generation fixes or and then reverting back to old mentalities. You have to change the whole concept of what is a SL dog....especially in work, structure, and color. You have to go back to moderation in structure, hardiness in work, and all acceptable colors if they possess the other two. If these things don't change....nothing changes....I've been saying this for 20 years and guess what.....still waiting; that's why this subject always ressurects. People want to keep what they like and fix the other parts....unfortunately what they like has to be dismantled and a level playing field established for the SL world to ever gain respect again. People don't want to do this....some don't realize what it takes and offer half solutions, others realize but let their "like" override their "love" of the breed. I have no respect for Judges or Breeders that allow their breeding direction be dictated by color, gait, or drives. Sure these are parts but only parts and should by no means be the impetus of breeding goals. Sheep follow the lead....the dogs that are placed on the podium in sport and show are flocked to with better females and males for reproduction. It is pitiful that the dogs at the top place by "respected Judges" and shown by "respected bredders" have fallen victim to this travesty. When I bring up these issues, the SL people clam up like church mice, because its hard to debate reason with like.
Anyway, that's my rant for 2012, I usually do it once a year, and then I'm good til next year.....You know the sad part....the sad part is every year this rant is still valid!!!!!
by dAWgESOME on 18 May 2012 - 01:17
So I have been trying to follow this topic and not get to irked by the bickering but.... here's some food for thought
So "they" say don't do the cross because it produces inconstant future producers - right...?
Ok, so tell me who really over many generations consistently does consistently produce consistent producers? (of any line, shape, size and or color...)
"They" also say only leave crossing to the experienced breeders - How do you think those breeders gained all that experience? I can say they sure as daylight did not get it from the internet nor did they get it from following the "norm" and doing only what "they" told them to do.
I love sushi, and I know the thought of even touching raw fish is repulsive to some (let alone dunking it in wasabi and soy sauce and eating a platter of it). Pot luck and pot sticker are great too....
As with most of the comments I add to the more controversial topics I'm sure I'll have posters remorse but it is what it is....
P.S. excellent post Gustav
by darylehret on 18 May 2012 - 01:57
|If we weren't breeding what we "liked" I don't know that anyone would breed at all. I'd kind of like to challenge anyone to offer a more thorough description of what "balanced" should mean.|
by charlie319 on 18 May 2012 - 02:36
You get no argument from me on the color bias. But it can be done...
I'll also concede that the market for such a "cross" is relatively narrow and is probably being serviced by working line kennels as most showlines are not quite of the required temperament and drives.
The main change would have to take place at the top, just as it did when blacks, grays and sables were sumarily taken out of contention in conformation shows.
by Chaz Reinhold on 18 May 2012 - 02:43
|Sometimes, I think about how people claim they want to go to a stud/female to improve something in their dog.I guess it isn't that big of a deal if it is something minor, but if there is something that needs to be improved, why breed your dog? There are more than enough Pups out there. Why not just get a puppy out of the improving mate and a like female or male? This goes for all lines. If I have a female that is great in every way, but I want to improve or make sure aggression, or prey, etc are passed, I would go to a mate that is producing such. But if I have a pretty dog with below average anything, breeding to the best dog does nothing. Want to improve the breed? Stop breeding garbage.|
by Chaz Reinhold on 18 May 2012 - 03:03
|Daryl, I don't know if I missed something, but to me, balanced is like a car stereo. You can go right to left, front to back, mess with the base and treble. I like a balanced dog. Right now, I have a dog that is too, too many things. Super civil, defense, sharp, etc. But now I have to give you my definitions of those things.|
by nypiper127 on 18 May 2012 - 03:31
|Daryl, excellent point about "liked"...but it is kind of what I have been saying....it really isn't a crime to "like" something...defining "balanced" as you well know...will be difficult. I would simplify balanced for myself as: an animal trusted in all aspects on and off the field around people, animals, and all environmental factors.|
Gustav, also an excellent post but in my humble opinion...you always lose a little bit of credibility when you attack the SL side and make believe the WL side is perfect! ("SL world to ever gain respect again". ) Respect from whom?? The Wl side? The SV?
Personally, I have no use whatsoever for a dog that wins competitions running in circles looking pretty. But some people do and if makes the happy...more power to them...but I also have no use for a GSD that is a beast on the field but looks more like a wild Dingo dog than a GSD. Again personal opinion so everyone relax.
Now, if that person, shampooing his / her dog and foo fooing the dog to make it look pretty to run in circles, (because that is what they like) why not make it so that same dog could perform on a sch field if it were trained to do so? And the reverse, A beast on the field that could perform well in show if that is what his owner wanted? I KNOW THERE ARE BOTH OF THOSE RIGHT NOW!!!! (and probably more so on the WL side). But my point is why not work to make it more the norm than the abberation?
Which brings me to my next point...YES, there are problems with the breeders not coming together to do this..but it seems to me, (and I am only going by what you more experienced people have said) that the real problem lies in the judging of these great animals. Titles should be sacred and earned. If titles lose value EVERYTHING is compromised and the value of the breed is lessened. It is disturbing to think there are SCHIII dogs that could hardly pass basic obedience...that, in my line of work, is fraud! Why is this important (at least this is what I am learning)? It is important because if lines are to be chosen for better breeding...one must have COMPLETE confidence in the pedigrees before him / her. It would seem to me that the last several generations have been compromised in that department. Also the judging body should be made of of enthusiasts / experts from both sides or those neutral to all (in a perfect world). If a Wl dog falls within the required standards (height, weight, etc) it should be equally judged in the Sl regardless of markings. By the same token if a SL dog looks awesome but cannot at least demonstrate a certain amount of working ability...it should win nothing (doesn't need to be a beast...but a standard of minimum focus , drive, and intelligence needs to be set). I REALLY REALLY am pissed about the cheapening of titles...it goes to honor and integrity...and when that is gone...there is no worth.
Finally, I think the other problem (and this is kind of a good problem) is that this dog is so versatile and so much is required / expected of them (show, work, herding, service etc) that it is very difficult to come up with one "standard" accepted by all.
This is what I have learned and it is my two cents and at the end of the day, that is probably all it is worth.
by brynjulf on 18 May 2012 - 03:41
|We always hear about these cheap titles... could someone please tell me which judges give them away for free? I'm tired of working so hard and would love to have some dogs skid through without as much prep as I currently put in. :)|
by darylehret on 18 May 2012 - 03:57
|I read a passage today in "Darwin on Trial" that's sort of relevant here.
So, what is the purpose of breeding, if not to encourage variation toward a usefeul purpose in serving humans? In my opinion, the fundamental difference between a wild dog and a domesticated dog, is that the dog seeks to serve it's fellow man. A strong attentiveness to the handler's needs is a primary form of extreme variation I would seek in my breeding. Would that make my dog imbalanced? No variation at all would be a very dull and useless dog, in my opinion.
by dAWgESOME on 18 May 2012 - 05:00
LOL - Darylehret - soooo if outward appearance is so insubstantial of a breeding quality why would you use this type of description in one of your classified ads?
Examples of this cross @ 5 months old below, but note that the current litter is much darker coloration.
Does darker coloration mean a better working dog or a more marketable/saleable dog? Or just what you would rather look at?
I'm 100% cool with the agree to disagree mentality but how long does everyone need to chase their proverbial tails in a circle...?
by darylehret on 18 May 2012 - 05:45
You've completely missed my point. Where did I ever say appearance wasn't important to me, or "insubstantial of breeding quality"? I don't believe that, but I also don't subscribe to the showline philosophy on structure. Why would I advertise a litter and omit a description of it's appearance? In that ad, I displayed previous examples of the same cross for structure's sake, but they were misrepresentative of the actual color. HA, SO THERE! EVERYthing has a dang structure, right? Mine just happen to be closer to the "original wild type" than the showline dogs with their saggy butt, and like it or not, color sells. Solid blacks and dark sables among the most favored. Doesn't at all mean I bred FOR that, just that what IS, IS, and that's how I'm telling it!