German Shepherd Dog > WL + SL = BL??? (205 replies)
by nypiper127 on 15 May 2012 - 22:02
I would definately take a dog like that (given sound temperment etc). I am not a big fan of the heavy angulation....makes me nervous! My guy is a wee bit of a banana back.
by DeesWolf on 15 May 2012 - 22:28
I guess I should explain more indepth my view on the "golden middle" Personally, I think it has a become a buzz phrase for a lot of people and the actual definition of it has been lost on its way to advertising. Over the years, the term has become an advertisment gimmick for SL breeders. It has become the adjective used to describe a dog that is not the ideal of the standard. Some carry on that the SL in the golden middle as it is not an "extreme, like THOSE working line dogs." Ask 5 SL breeders and 5 WL breeders what they think the definition of Golden Middle is, and you will most likely hear the SL folks say it is the dogs they produce. The WL folks will tell you it is somewhere in the middle of the WL dogs.
To comment on your statements about beauty. It truly is in the eye of the beholder or in some cases the judges. For me, I can look at a dog and see an appealing appearance, however, that can all be lost if the dog is not the whole package. For me, the beauty of the dog is in the work it does happily, joyfully, and correctly. I will oooooh and aaaaaaah over a black sable dog ALL day long! mainly because my all time favorite GSD was my brother's black sable. I can stand on the sidelines of a sieger show, gaze out over the lines of black & reds, and not find one of them appealing. This is because I know that there will be very few of them who will show me what I want to see, during the performance test (not that I place a lot of stock in the test, but I would like to see some real courage). As someone on here once said, "the wow factor is lost, when you look under the hood of a lamborgini and you find the engine of a Nova."
Sorry to ruin your walk with your dog ;-)
by Ibrahim on 15 May 2012 - 22:47
|Beauty does not mean the whole package, perfect means the whole package, jmo. Otherwise we wouldn't have different vocabularies like strong, athletic, substantial, balanced etc etc. Who doesn't like his dog? who thinks his dog is ugly? are all dogs beautiful?, beautiful is beautiful not more not less. When you talk about mere beauty there is no breed more beautiful than a well built beautifully structured and angulated GSD gaiting with pride showing full interest and enthusiasm, fluid and ready to gait endlessely. That is beauty, it's not all yes but that's beauty. There is nothing more beautiful than a show GSD puppy coat when you look at those hairs with several shining colors pushing in all directions from its chest and neck. That does not mean other colors are not beautiful on their own. Beautiful is what it is "beautiful".|
by nypiper127 on 15 May 2012 - 23:25
|A gift to the WL side:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn3VghnNEpc |
by nypiper127 on 15 May 2012 - 23:27
|One more gift:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTN5kTkdvME |
Don't say I never gave you nothing!
by joanro on 16 May 2012 - 03:22
|When you're talking about real beauty, there truly is nothing more beautiful than an athletically structured, moderately angulated gsd tirelessly trotting along with you through the woods,sun glinting off splendid black tipped rust and grey coat; ears erect and catching every sound ; eyes piercing the depths of forest shadows; the nose absorbing exciting tell tale scents lingering in the damp vegetation; all in anticipation of the opportunity to explode into full speed after the unwary, careless cottontail !!|
by Chaz Reinhold on 16 May 2012 - 04:28
|Here's a gift to you. Claudia is a hell of a trainer. It is no surprise that she could train a well driven dog of any breed. Ivan is just as good of a trainer, if not one of the best. How did he do with that SL gsd?|
by Gustav on 16 May 2012 - 11:41
|Dee, I like your vision and determination and agree with much of what you see and perceive. I am in that second class of WL breeders you name and always have been. I just don't view it as WL, I view it as a German Shepherd that can work. The beauty of any GS to me is to watch it gracefully work at its task. The better it works the more graceful it is..the more beautiful..to me.|
I also did a SL/WL breeding about 15 years ago. I kept pick puppy and titled it in Sch. He was very dark black and tan(almost bi-color), had fabulous temperament and looks. They were nice looking dogs, but you had issues of dogs being sharp, because of weaker nerves and stronger genetic aggression from WL side. Both parents had very nice Temperament, and my SL female actually was a daughter of brother to Kimon. This going back to Mutz v Peltzerferm as well as the obvious Wienereau dogs. One male is 14 years old now, owned by Deleware State Trooper and family, and his wife just got another male through me 6 months ago because she liked this dog so much.
My point is if you start down this road, you have to continue to go to working lines genetically although you can make sure they have the phenotype you want.
One of the other problems with a mixing of the lines, is often the drives of WL are rather extreme. Now if you have a working line with extreme drive and the "nervebase" to go along with it, then the dog can cap that drive and make a good overall dog. But often the SL DON't have the generational strength of nervebase to give the pups the foundation to handle working lines drive. These are the kinda of WL you outlined as the podium WL. Unfortunately, the sportier podium WL are very popular right now. Many people don't understand the difference in drives and temperament. You can have good temperament without over the top drives, but you can't have good temperament without good nervebase. Many WL dogs today have less than stellar nervebase, but have very strong drives, yet are lacking, and i see it all the time in environmental issues and issues of courage. Of course Sch won't test either of these aspects adequately anymore, thus SL and WL can very easily acheive a Sch degree.
Good Luck to your program, and hopefully the thread's dialogue helps the OP.
by Sunsilver on 16 May 2012 - 12:17
|Just wanted to add my own insights here from what happens with another breed when you cross lines.|
As many of you know, the Shiloh Shepherd was bred to produce a soft dog that just about anyone could handle. Breeders who split with the parent club (the ISSR) are cut off from being able to breed back to the ISSR lines. This led to massive inbreeding on the non-ISSR stock.
Finally, the breeders were forced to back cross to the German Shepherd. Of course, most of the GSDs had higher drive, and this tended to produce dogs with sharp-shy temperaments, especially when the dogs were crossed to working line GSDs.
by BoCRon on 16 May 2012 - 12:47
|When my husband first got into Schutzhund,(early 80's) breeding WL to SL was very common and most of the imports being brought in by the Schutzhund enthusiasts of the time were a combo of the big names in both venues. I think both camps came to the realization that they weren't getting what they really wanted and the practice went by the wayside and the divide became deeper. If you go back in many of the well known dogs of that time you will see the mix very regularly.|
As to the beauty thing, as others have said it's in the eye of the beholder. I have a SL male who is stunning and I get constant comments from total strangers on his good looks. While I love him to death, to me he reminds me of a Tennessee Walking horse, pretty to watch but not functional for what I want to do. We have had WL dogs for years because that is the look we prefer and have always thought that the look of the WL dogs is the "prettier" of all the types out there.
by nypiper127 on 16 May 2012 - 12:49
This thread has been extremely informative for me ESPECIALLY when you heavy hitters enter into a discussion / debate amongst each other. It is even more interesting when past / current breedings of SL and WL are used as an example. Very interesting to hear the plans of those involved...just not sure I can keep this thread going another eight years to get to the desired generations to see if it was a success! I just wish there were more like you and more interested in presenting possible solutions.
by charlie319 on 16 May 2012 - 12:55
|IMPO, the crux of these WL/SL crosses is that you very seldom find a breeder commited enough to the concept and execution to:|
a- Use top quality breeding stock. Usually, one of the parents is of exceptional (that is notoriously eye-catching) quality while the other party is of rather pedestrian quality.
b- Use of top quality breeding stock while breeding towards a solid temperament base, which IMPO would require a SL dog (preferably the female) that has a hard temperament along with appropriate drives for either sport or real protection,depending of what you are breeding for. I recall that in another thread someone brought forth a well bred cross http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=566155
Finsterling d Ulmenthal is a very nice looking SChH-3 dog with a KKL-1 who has gone to the BSZS.
In this crossing, also by a very good looking WL sire, http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=739067
we can see the meeting of well bred parents from either line producing a V rated, SchH-3, KKL-1 female.
The problem is not really in the concept, but the willingess by the breeder to attempt to cross that Rubicon of breeding a high quality dog, from high quality assets for a very narrow sliver ofthe market that does want a GSD of pre-Martins' capabilities. Most don't execute well because it makes little sense to use one of your better bitches for a breeding that may be hard to sell when you can mate with a like (WL to WL or SL to SL) and sell the pups quickly and well.
While it is easy to blame the breeders, it is the consumer's fault that the breed is in the state it is in with SL dogs that are lacking in temperament and drives because they get in the way of training them and showing them, or little point/sleve whores designed to be easy and quick to train, and to achieve trial high scores and little else, because that is what sells.
Don't get me wrong, I find that there are many well conformed and aesthetically pleasing WL dogs, but that is not what breeders are focusing in, and sadly, they are as scarce as showlines who would do well at the BSP. Here's a nice example of a nice looking, yet not famous WL dog:
And another line-bred Major vom Phoenix dog:
( I researched this line for personal reasons) that is well bred for both conformation as well as performance. Yet, for this thread, I think that a well accomplished breeder such as d'Ulmenthal, or Haus Pe-Ja, has the assets, knowledge and will to put better breeding stock towards this kind of breeding with a good measure of success.
Your average breeder is usually lacking in one of those areas which is why weseldom see top-notch, complementary, specimens used for these types of crosses.
by charlie319 on 16 May 2012 - 13:08
|BTW, this WL/SL cross is in my female's pedigree:|
Nothing truly new in the concept.
by nypiper127 on 16 May 2012 - 13:28
Awesome examples and WOW to Finsterling d`Ulmental !!!!! I see he is also out of Ursus and his pedigree is exactly what this thread was about. But the key would then be to see what further generations probuce. I wonder how D'Ulmental will breed any picks they keep back?
by Sunsilver on 16 May 2012 - 13:42
|When my husband first got into Schutzhund,(early 80's) breeding WL to SL was very common and most of the imports being brought in by the Schutzhund enthusiasts of the time were a combo of the big names in both venues. I think both camps came to the realization that they weren't getting what they really wanted and the practice went by the wayside and the divide became deeper. |
The reason the divide became deeper was NOT because the breeders weren't getting what they wanted, but because the mixes couldn't win! Only the pretty black and red Martin-style shepherds were being selected by the SV judges. Koos Hassing begged the head of the SV (I think it was Peter Messler at the time?) to select sable dogs for VA placings, but he refused, saying, "Not as long as I'm head of the SV!
And it's been that way ever since!
by charlie319 on 16 May 2012 - 14:09
|It may have taken this kind of sable, but they have cracked the top-ten:|
Timo is one of my favorite GSD's in recent decades. VA-2 two years in a row, and to quote boxers: "he was robbed"... Should have been VA-1
by Jenni78 on 16 May 2012 - 15:05
|Charlie, there's a lot of truth in your second to last post. |
I tried to not let looks, structure, and bone slip through the cracks, produced some nice looking dogs (imho,lol) and I noticed there does seem to be a general consensus/preconceived notion among wl folks that a dog must be ugly to work well... I have had more than a few surprised comments that one dog in particular is quite intense, because she's stunning (other people's opinion, too, not just mine, lol).
I think there is such a rift and difference in opinion of what constitutes balanced, driven, aesthetically pleasing, etc., that we will NEVER reach a consensus. There are dogs that people tell me have all my criteria in spades- I meet the dog, and it's nothing I would feed. And vice versa- I tell someone a dog is beautiful, to boot, and they say they don't like its stronger muzzle and it looks more like a mastiff. To each his own, fortunately, or unfortunately.
by charlie319 on 16 May 2012 - 18:10
|nypiper: Well it is not just Ursus. You also have Max de la Logia dei Mercanti, who also produces good ability. So. You have a great WL pedigree in Javir vTM, who can compete in conformation, and Showline dogs of good drives and temperaments producing a dog that can do both. I certainly hope that the SV will overcome the schism and allow blacks, greys and sables to compete on a level field as it should be to the benefit of the breed.|
by darylehret on 16 May 2012 - 19:26
|"I certainly hope that the SV will overcome the schism and allow blacks, greys and sables to compete on a level field as it should be to the benefit of the breed."|
Interesting, I never considered before how that might impact the split, but it's sort of inversely proportional to my proposition to get B&T more widespread into the workinglines. WL dogs would also then be "more competitive" in the conformation ring. But really, since the upcoming RSV2000, who needs the SV anyway? Cut out the tumor, and there'd be nothing left.
by Gustav on 16 May 2012 - 19:46
|Timo to me is like Triumphs Gucci. Both were abberations(for practical purposes), that SL people have used to justify the criticisms in their lack of work and color. That is not to criticize them, they were great dogs, but two dogs out of tens of thousands over past twenty years placing high in work and show.....that in itself speaks volumes about the distortion.|
@ Charlie....though i agree with some of what you say....my problem is this. Out of a litter of 8 SL dogs say you get a puppy with super wotking traits, (a female), and maybe three others are good, and maybe three are soft, and maybe one is exact opposite of first and weaknerved. Now you breed this super strong female out of the litter to the proverbial WL, what do you think will have a bigger impact in her contribution to the litter....1) what she herself is? 2) or what the consensus of what the litter is from which she comes. So now when the pups come out that reflect a lot of what her littermates were....then the WL dog gets tarnished for producing nerviness, weak nerves or sharp dogs. Its not an equal equation genetically, so it can't be fixed with one generation breedings to what you are trying to improve. JMO