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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > INCOMPETENT AND POOR JUDGING (25 replies)
INCOMPETENT AND POOR JUDGING by Blerio on 07 May 2012 - 14:03 |
| I witnessed some unbelievable and incompetent judging at SATS on Saturday, the dog judge was confused and unable to judge classes if there was more than 3 in a class. The open class was a farce, the judge lost control, and become confused. Dogs way over size and some unsound and eratic movement were winning classes. I thought correct size and movement was an important part of the breed standard. I dont think judges, who have been instructed by the K.C. to look for and not to promote these faults give a toss! A similar scenario happened at WELKS. You may argue it's not the judges fault, they are doing their best! You have to question the committees who are selecting these inferior judges and their motives. The next time a judging appointment is posted through their door requesting them to judge, Please rip it up!!!!! |
by opa on 07 May 2012 - 16:40 |
| Blerio,Was the judging that bad. |
by Blerio on 07 May 2012 - 17:52 |
| YEP!! The judging was that bad! There was enough comments after the show, but people just accept it and move onto the next show. So what can be done to improve the quality of our judges, to stop poor judging and other problems, like favours, you judge our show, I'll judge you'res, showing under close friends, partners, or judges that have had some involvement with their dogs, like training here and in Germany, exhibiters need to be whiter than white, and take the sellection of judges away from committees. In some cases there are only 1 or 2 people sellecting the judge, I did hear 1 committee member from 1 club selected himself. It's hard enough to get entries for shows without giving people the reason to not enter. I also think judges should be retested on a regular basis to demonstrate their competence, and fit for purpose. |
by dragon on 07 May 2012 - 18:29 |
| lol bill the dog judging must of been confussing cause it was sunday not saturday lol bless ya but i do agree with dog judge was a free for all worst ive seen also jeanette |
by Blerio on 07 May 2012 - 19:08 |
| You're right Netty!! It feels like Sunday today, bank holiday weekend!!!! The point I made about being in one anothers pockets, WHAT does the dog ticket and reserve ticket winners and the judge have in common!!!! they are all on the HOV committee. WHAT does the bitch ticket winner and the judge have in common!!! partners in a dog. Irest my case!!!! |
by jaymesie51 on 07 May 2012 - 20:32 |
| i agree with you bill it would seem that people just accept it and move on to the next show, cheating has always gone on but it is worse now than its ever been and thats because people have ignored it,or maybe dont want to rock the boat in case it affects them and there placings at shows.So what can we do about it, do not appoint the bent judges the incompetent judges tell your committee that they cannot appoint such and such to judge and why,25+ years ago you would get upwards of 50 in a class now you are lucky to get 50 for the whole show, breed clubs are closing down because they cannot get the people to help or entries are so low the show costs them money and as long as this goes on we will never entice the people back into showing. jimh |
jaymesie51 by Videx on 07 May 2012 - 21:45 |
| Sadly a number of (the few) exhibitors these days will enter under incompetent judges. I call them "lottery Judges" = anyone can win. "Connections" are the basis of most awards these days. It will inevitably continue in the same way entries will continue falling. I asked Rhoda today about showing our Omen puppies this summer, she answered "what's the point?" "what's the point?" sums up the feeling of the vast majority of potential exhibitors, and they are almost totally ignored by those that organise our Shows and select our Judges. The future remains bleak, even for those who think they are successful, for its all in their imagination. |
Videx by Mackenzie on 08 May 2012 - 07:29 |
What is being seen today has been there from the time that I first came into the breed forty two years ago. David says that"Connections" are the basis of most awards these days.” That sums up perfectly the first experience when I that learnt this lesson. I finished third in a class at one of my first shows that was judged by a member of the League Council. After the judging she came to me and said “I liked your dog best BUT (here it comes) you have to do your apprenticeship first“!!! First and second places went to well known faces. After this I became very selective in the shows that I attended. It saved me a lot of expense and heartache. How do we measure success when entries are so poor? Sadly, we have to look first at the judge and the winning owners to answer this and only then we can consider the dogs on their merit. In this period of time the future is indeed bleak. Where are the experienced and knowledgeable people now? These are the most influential people and now is the time for them to step up and lead the way forward. Judging standards must also improve and be rigidly applied to ensure that the correct animals only are promoted. Mackenzie |
by Blerio on 08 May 2012 - 08:47 |
| Mackenzie, That judge that placed you 3rd showed you the arrogance of an untouchable, I would have been furious and would have had to expose her for her attitude and arrogance. I dont think some of the incompetent judges of today would have the balls to make a comment like that. The silence from the breed in this country is Deafening, The judge on Sunday was at the best incompetent or worst corrupt. Why do we not hear a cry for change, and to make sure it never happens again. Are the exhibiters so frightened to speak out against such procedures that they might affect their chances at future shows. If that is the case, you will let the incompetent /corrupt judges and exhibiters feel they are untouchable. I think this problem should be on every breed clubs agenda at their next meeting for discussion, to ensure that any incompetent/corrupt judges are never invited to judge at their shows. |
by jaymesie51 on 08 May 2012 - 09:12 |
| let us not forget that the oversea,s judges are not exempt from favour judging in fact some of them are so blatant that it is beyond belief,we all pay the same entry fee, some of us will pay out a lot in fuel to get to a show and back, surely we all deserve an honest appraisal of our dogs from the judge, i know that you can not please everyone all of the time and someone has to be 1st/last etc, i am happy with any placing i get if i see that the judge has given an honest opinion of all the dogs,verbal critiques certainly help when the judge explains his placings because then you can see for yourself (ie these 2 dogs are very similar but i prefered the front reach of the first dog,) now it could be that the judge was the only one that prefered the front reach of said dog and what he/she really means is this is my pals dog so it was always going to win.there again he/she may be 100% correct but at least you would know wheather to enter under said judge again because lets be honest most people know most people in gsd and some will be close friends but as long as the judging is honest then that should not be a problem, jim h |
by madwomen on 08 May 2012 - 09:37 |
| Haven't been to a show for over a year nothing has changed if you dont win you have to have a moan. But I think you have got it wrong. Its like the pot calling the kettle black. You can show and win under your cronnies ie Terry Hannan, Paul Bradley and no doubt in the near future Joe Summerhill and win. Thats acceptable YES? So why critize others for doing the same? The dog judge did quite a good job considering what she had in the classes. The dog tipped to win backed off and its placing reflected that. Very mixed bunch of animals in most classes, some overweight, some to thin and weather conditions underfoot were awful. Just because they serve on the same committee does not mean they can't put the best animal up from what was there. Have you not served on a committee and been put up by another committee member? The bitch judge was a bit more blatant because there were much better females in her classes than the overall winner. At least the dog judge had the courage of her convictions and called the referee in. |
by Mackenzie on 08 May 2012 - 10:03 |
Blerio, that experience that I quoted happened at a time when I had only been in the breed for a few months. It could never happen again. The thing that amazes me most is that everyone in the show scene know who the culprits are and, yet, they still enter under these people with the same results but never speak out. I also think that it is a bit naïve to think that these problems will be addressed in Committee Meetings when many committees do not even tell the members what is going on. Why is the League not taking this up. They are the leading club but who is leading. Sadly, until a few good people, who really know what they are doing, come forward and give the breed the lead out that it needs then nothing will change. Jaymesie makes the point about visiting judges. About two years ago a German judge that I know very well spoke to me about a certain person and their dog. I gave a non committal answer and said that he would have to call it as he sees it on the day. He was not best pleased with my answer, however, it came as no surprise to me to see that the person mentioned and their dog received top honours a few months later. The KC All Rounders are equally to blame for the promotion of animals to the benefit of certain people. I have experienced this too. Mackenzie |
by agilitylad on 08 May 2012 - 10:11 |
| Wasn't going to comment on this but I was at this show as a spectator, my opinion on the judging for what it was worth, Dog judge, had some decent dogs entered, gave the impression she didnt know what on earth she was doing, had 2 or 3 in classes and had to keep checking her notes all the time, had no control or method to judging, whether she was dishonest when it came to top awards I |
by agilitylad on 08 May 2012 - 10:15 |
| sorry pressed end button too soon. whether she was dishonest when it came to top awards I dont know but certainly the best 2 dogs didnt win at the end of the day. Bitch judge, some super females, nice line up, obviously has a good eye for a dog but unfortunately was blatently favouring certain kennels, bitch cc was nice, very nice but maybe not the best female there and the reserve, well not sure where she came from except I guess they are friends. Not judges I would enter under but I am sure they will get more judging appointments and put up their friends again, exhibitors need to vote with their feet and stay at home in future. |
by Hundmutter on 08 May 2012 - 11:10 |
| This is for David and Rhoda - surely there is a point, in that whether you are well-placed or not, whether the judging is crooked or incompetant or not, some of us who are interested spectators (as often as we can be) and actually interested in the breed and like to see good specimens would actually like to see Videx dogs (and from other kennels who also seem close to giving up on showing) out there, where we can learn, and compare them for our own interest, & to be able to help people looking for studs, puppies, etc - a function that Shows have always had ? Other than being timewasters and booking in to see kennels' dogs individually, when having no intention of buying ? I know its getting more expensive by the minute - but please don't stop. Linda Swift. |
Hundmutter by Videx on 08 May 2012 - 11:58 |
| Linda Swift: I am fully aware that our Shows should be a "window on our breed" for the many reasons you mention. Unfortunately for Videx to support a show with an entry and even win a class or two, we then have to frequently witness other outstanding dogs "just missing out" on the BIG PRIZE - The CC going to a "CONNECTION". It makes us very angry that we gave the Judge an entry, which indicated support for the Judge. WIN or LOSE with my own dogs is NOT what makes me assess a JUDGE. What they do with the BIG PRIZE is the major indicator of what the Judge is up to. Our Shows are a window on JUDGES, and I am appalled at what I am witnessing. The future is very bleak indeed. I would like to see published a 5 & 10 year list of ALL CC winners - The names of the Judges and the names of the CC winners. This in itself would reveal "many connections" - some would reveal an incredible list of CC's to the same Kennel from the same Judge. |
by Blitzen on 08 May 2012 - 12:21 |
If it's any consolation, it happens in the US at AKC shows all the time too. At a recent specialty weekend the Best Puppy in Show on Friday was 4th out of 4 on Sunday and most of the other results were as contradictory. Go figure....... |
Blitzen by noddi on 08 May 2012 - 12:30 |
| I was at this show n yes the conditions underfoot were very bad,BUT thses conditions are NOT unusual for our breed or handlers to contend with.I,m of the same opinion as Bill re the judging of the males.I have shown twice before under this lady with Chiki,the 1st time as a junior when she was pulled out 3rd,moved up to 1st place ,then demoted to 2nd(female moved up to 1st handled by a well known person to her)Accepted this with good grace as thought maybe chiki,s shape not as pleasing to her as the other bitch.On reading the critique in dog paper,she commented 1st placed bitch won on her MOVEMENT!!!!!!UHHH ,She didnt move us again after demoting chiki from her 1st place to 2nd so how can she say that.The 2nd time i thought the judging was very blantantly facey.Now to the bitches,yes i was entered in vet.bitch but chiki didnt go.I found the bitch judging more consistant,n thought her placings were about right.IMHO.The quality wasnt there in either classes.Yes there were some quality animals there,some did win,some didnt.Its all well saying vote with your feet n stay at home Mackenzie but IMO.i wouldnt go to ANY SHOWS then.I think nearly all shows are facey,to a point.Maybe its about time club committee members are NOT ALLOWED TO ENTER THEIR OWN SHOWS ,nor handle others dogs n relatives of the judges also refrain from handling.David,i luv.the 4 siblings u had at the pup/young dog event n hiya to mackenzie,hope u n the missus are keeping well.Carole Spelman Rheinmeister gsds. |
by Blerio on 08 May 2012 - 12:51 |
| Madwoman, I take it that you were at the show! I've never shown under the judges you named for years, never shown under a fellow committee member, or close friends, or people I've had dogs in parnership, or sold to. And NO it's not acceptable, so kettle and black dont come into it. I've been told that I'm crazy for not showing under close friends, and 2 judges have asked me to enter under them this year,but I didn't. You say the judge did a good job!!! did you watch the open class, I felt embarrassed for her, she was totally lost, even the handlers were confused. I dont think exhibiters mind being beaten by better dogs, thats not the issue. I dont know what was tipped to win! but you probably got that wrong. I criticize every one who shows under judges for the wrong reason, 2 wrongs will never make a right. |
by Hundmutter on 08 May 2012 - 20:41 |
| David, I reckon Carole is right; since these problems seem so prevalent, if everyone who prefers to have some cast-iron guarantee that the judging won't be 'useless' - let alone facey or you-scratch-my-back etc - just stops going, we'll soon have hardly anyone attending Shows at all. I know there is a bit of resistance to the very thought that this sort of judging is happening; but I've been hearing about it for a long time now (and thats not just in our breed) - and 'theres no smoke without fire' - so what can we do to come up with concrete ways to tackle it ? Ideas ? It does not appear, to me, to break into nice easily separateable chunks where eg it happens at some sorts of show and not others - if it was just the difference between, say, Breed Club / specialist shows being ok, but all-breeds Canine Society shows being always where it happens, then it might be easier to tackle ? Or should we just say Okay, let Showing die a death, leave it to the swappsies crowd to have all Shows all to themselves, for as little time as they would, financially, have left ? Would that really be what you'd want to see happen ? I know I don't have a magic answer either, but surely we don't want to just complain without putting up any ideas for alternative solutions ? (I guess 'the likes of me' look to 'the likes of you' for suggested answers to problems, 'cos you have the experience and the contacts ... sorry that sounds awfully 'crawly', but I'd guess you'll get what I mean). |
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