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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > 2 sires bred to same female and they can be AKC registered? (22 replies)
2 sires bred to same female and they can be AKC registered? by swingfield on 06 May 2012 - 23:00 |
| I just read a post on here for a litter of pups that have the possibility of having 2 different sires... she would be able to tell by the whelping date as to which sire actually took.. she bred them 11 days apart and one is a black and red and one is a sable.. so in her ad it states that if there are any sables that she knows of course which one the sire is of that puppy.. have I been out of the loop that much the last 15 years since breeding that you can actually get AKC registration on a litter that the bitch was exposed to different studs and still be registered? in that case would DNA of the puppies immediately put that to rest and it be legal?? wow! sounds crazy to me.. just sayin.. please educate me! |
swingfield by dogshome9 on 06 May 2012 - 23:10 |
Both sires and the dam would have to have been DNA tested and all of the puppies would have to be DNA ed in order to register them. |
dogshome9 by aceofspades on 06 May 2012 - 23:14 |
| I would think that technically she should have to DNA them as both males could produce puppies in the litter. If both of the males took then there is a very real possibility of the puppies being born on what would be the due date from the first tie and then there would be full term and premature puppies. 11 days is a LOT early for a dog and I would suspect that those puppies would not live if both matings produced puppies. But back to the original question, I do not know, but I would assume that all of the puppies shOuld be DNAd before registering. ALL of them because both sites can produce puppies in the same litter. |
aceofspades by swingfield on 06 May 2012 - 23:15 |
| Really?? It makes sense.. but I wouldnt have thought you could have had mulitple pups with different sires..!! At least that can be registered..thanks for the note!! if the people werent honest.. then when the new owners go to breed their new dog when it is at breeding age and get their DNA it wouldnt be right then?? |
by CMills on 06 May 2012 - 23:23 |
| Yes, you can have pups sired by several males technically if they all bred the female. and yes they can be AKC registered, but they do all need to be DNA'ed all possible parents first, so the AKC can issue the correct sets of papers. |
CMills by swingfield on 06 May 2012 - 23:28 |
| Thanks for the info! Same in the horse world. boy things are a changing. |
by Bendor Golden Duke on 06 May 2012 - 23:38 |
| The practice, 2 fathers in the same litter, is in Europe absolutely strange! I often search for litter-siblings in the AKC database. ( the free-shedule). Littermates have the same pedigree number in beginning of stud-book-number, only the last two numbers are different. How is that in litters with multiple fathers ? ? ? ? many thanks from Germany |
by malndobe on 07 May 2012 - 01:20 |
| I often search for litter-siblings in the AKC database. ( the free-shedule). Littermates have the same pedigree number in beginning of stud-book-number, only the last two numbers are different. How is that in litters with multiple fathers ? ? ? ? In a litter with multiple sires, the pups are registered as if they are in different litters. I bred one female to two males a few years ago. At birth I did DNA testing on all the pups, once we got the results back I reported them to AKC, 3 pups were by 1 sire and 4 by the other. The pups were registered as if they were two different litters, with the same mom and birth date. But one litter had a litter registration number of DN225850 and the other litter was ND225851. |
malndobe by swingfield on 07 May 2012 - 01:32 |
| Very interesting.. I can see the benefit.. but the reasoning to me would be breed one dog one time and the other the next..Iam still old fashioned! LOL .. but that would be cool to get a mixture of 2 great sires!! Why pay for breedings if you own your own stud dogs..How much is it to verify through DNA on a litter?? |
by macrowe1 on 07 May 2012 - 02:06 |
| I've seen one be bred by two different sires (accidently), who had two seperate placentas with 4 that were full-bred Vizslas, and two who were half Vizslas half-Lab. But they came out in two different sacs with two different placentas. Weird. Did she purposely breed two different males? That just seems odd and unresponsible. But they'd have to be DNA tested. |
macrowe1 by malndobe on 07 May 2012 - 02:34 |
| Very interesting.. I can see the benefit.. but the reasoning to me would be breed one dog one time and the other the next..Iam still old fashioned! LOL .. but that would be cool to get a mixture of 2 great sires!! Why pay for breedings if you own your own stud dogs..How much is it to verify through DNA on a litter?? It was 35.00 per pup to do the DNA testing, plus 35 for each parent. That was prepaid, if I had just ordered the swabs then paid when I sent them in it would have been 40. Plus an extra 200 fee to register the litter since there were 2 sires. So an extra 445 to register the pups plus some rush mailing costs. I did it because I wanted to breed the female to two different males, but this way I was able to get "2 for the price of 1", the price being the wear and tear on the females body, down time from training, etc. I can see if a females only purpose is as a brood bitch not bothering with dual sired litters, unless she's older, you only want to breed her one more time, and you really want to breed her to more than 1 sire still. But if a female is a competition dog, or say you leased her for a litter and can only have her for 1 litter, then this is a way to basically get 2 small "litters" while only having the down time of 1 litter. Assuming of course that some pups are sired by each male, it's possible all the pups will be sired by 1 male. |
by Blitzen on 07 May 2012 - 02:44 |
IMO AKC's approving the dual sired litter is a good thing. It gives breeders a better chance of getting a litter if 2 sires are used, especially if one is older and/or has a lower count. |
Blitzen by Jenni78 on 07 May 2012 - 03:10 |
| Why on Earth would it be irresponsible to breed to 2 sires? 2 litters, one pregnancy...easier on the bitch. |
Jenni78 by stary_eyed_angel on 07 May 2012 - 04:05 |
| It is absolutely possible to register a multiple sired litter. You can have more than two males if you'd like but most keep it at two. There can be several reasons. It could simply be an accident and the responsible thing to do would be to be up front and honest about it. It could be that the breeder would prefer to have "more" litters out of a bitch while having her pregnant few times. This allows a bitch to retire younger and causes less strain on her body. Some breeds are recommended to start breeding at an older age so this again allows more litters with fewer actual pregnancies. Some also have such hard pregnancies that the breeder will want her bred as few times as possible. Then there are the people leasing bitches. They may only get one shot at it but have more than one male they would like to pair with her. A multiple sired litter is the only way to accomplish that goal. To register the litter, AKC requires the sire, dam, and ALL pups to have DNA done with permanent ID being required on pups if you would like the DNA profile to eventually match to their AKC papers otherwise it won't count. If the sires are closely related (father/son or brothers for example) the breeder may need to do a different DNA profile that is more expensive and takes longer but has more markers to differentiate between the similar DNA. After this is done, if only one sire is found then the litter is registered the usual way. If more than one sire is found, there is a $200 fee plus the regular registration fee of $25 for each sire's litter (so if you have two sires it is $25 for sire A and $25 for sire B) and then the $2 per puppy. This is not a cheap way to breed but it can help people further their goals much faster. |
by aceofspades on 07 May 2012 - 05:49 |
| My only concern in THIS case would be that there is 11 days between breedings. Would that not be of a concern? If both breedings took and the puppies are born on the due date of the first breeding, that would make the puppies from the second breeding 11 days early......is that safe? On the same note if she delivers concurrent to the second breeding that would make th first puppies 11 days overdue, which I would imagine could be a very real problem for a dog, considering humans who are pregnant for 9 months are very rarely let to go beyond 14 days past a confirmed estimated due date. Otherwise I understand the reasoning between having multiple sires in one litter. Edited to remove a sentence that I found the answer to |
by aceofspades on 07 May 2012 - 05:53 |
| I've seen one be bred by two different sires (accidently), who had two seperate placentas with 4 that were full-bred Vizslas, and two who were half Vizslas half-Lab. But they came out in two different sacs with two different placentas. Weird. Two placentas and two amniotic sacs for the entire litter? There should be one placenta and one sac for every puppy, regardless of whether there is one sire or multiple. If there are six puppies you would have six placentas and six amniotic sacs. If there were 4 puppies in one sac with one placenta that would mean they were identical quadruplets and if the other two were in one sac with one placenta that would make them identical twins. Not sure that is a common occurrence for dogs. |
by Hundmutter on 07 May 2012 - 05:56 |
| This is currently being considered by the UK Kennel Club also. The issue is being put out for consultation to Breed Clubs. The idea is to use it as one method of restricting the over-use of 'flavour of the month' sires. Producing a litter from two sires, either naturally or by AI, "could reduce the genetic impact by the popular sire and still play a part in improving the genetic diversity of that breed." The KC is expecting "a degree of negativity". "Deliberate mating of a bitch to two sires would make scientific sense if this increased the genetic diversity in a breed and for breeds producing large litters with small population sizes, it would reduce the impact of a large single litter on the breed gene pool" - they also say that given they've restricted bitches to four litters, this practice might improve the situation by allowing some sires "to be used more frequently than otherwise might be considered desirable by the breeder with restricted opportunities to mate their bitch" (which sounds a bit like robbing Peter to pay Paul to me ?). Which dog fathered which puppies to be determined by DNA paternity test. |
Hundmutter by Blitzen on 07 May 2012 - 12:21 |
It's not, Ace. Even identical twins are not at all that common in the dog world either. Litter brothers can be dual sires of the same litter, a different DNA test may be needed to identify parenthood, but their DNA will never be identical unlesss they were both were both presented in the same placenta. Another good reason for a dual sired litter is the popular use of frozen semen. As fas as I know a bitch can be surgically implanted with thawed semen from 2 different males or can be bred naturally to one and and then implanted when the timing is right. Litters from the use of frozen are usually smaller than normal. I really wish Germany would approve the use of frozen semen and dual sired litters but, I'm not holding my breath in anticipation. |
by swingfield on 07 May 2012 - 13:38 |
| wow.. alot of angles covered here.. thanks so very much! I do know as a tech, that there is a window for ovulation.. so the 11 day story is what caught my eye in the first place! So the thoughts just flowed from there! Thanks guys for your imput and I love reading everyones stories and thoughts !! Sherry |
by Ramage on 07 May 2012 - 14:10 |
| The breeder of that litter really needs to DNA all 3 parents and the puppies if she wants to be sure of parentage. It is very possible that both sires will have puppies in the litter and her using color to distinguish puppies only goes so far (only works for the sable pups). As for puppies being 11 days younger, this is not possible. There is a small window of time that the eggs are ripe to be fertilized. Typically, eggs still have 1 or 2 days to mature post ovulation and then there is about a 3 day window to be fertilized. Typically, if you breed on the day of ovulation there is a chance that some puppies might be 4-5 days apart in age, but 11 days apart isn't going to happen. However, I suspect this breeder is thinking the 11 day difference in breedings means there can only be one sire. This is not correct. |
Ramage
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