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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > What a beautiful dog - Can anyone tell me about this line? (48 replies)
by laura271 on 29 April 2012 - 20:47 |
| I think Bhaugh and Brynjulf have provided very good advice. Be brutally honest about your training skill level and how much time you are willing to commit to training before you select a w/l GSD. I think having a dog that suits your lifestyle is much more important than what the dog looks like. I have a 6 month old w/l GSD that I bought from my trainer. He knew my skill level and lifestyle and selected a puppy from his litter that best suited me. Bosco is a medium drive dog who has a bit of attitude. He's a very good fit for me- he's within my training skill level if I push myself to keep learning. He's a lot of fun but he is a serious time commitment since he needs to be worked every day. |
laura271 by fawndallas on 30 April 2012 - 03:07 |
| Thank you everyone. I am in no rush for another dog. This dog just caught my eye. If things were perfect with his line for my family, I might look into making some changes. Sounds like his line might be too much for me though. When and if the time comes for me to get another dog, I will look close at this line, as this dog is beautiful. We’ll see where I am at in my life at that time. I have kept everyone’s information and notes. Thanks again. I am planning on keeping 1 -2 of Rose’s puppies. That will make plenty of dogs for my family for now (that will make up to five) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dog training experience – These have all been dogs I have personally owned over the last 15 years. I have only taught basic obedience (except for Rose). Rose’s litter will be the first dogs I have taught for someone else. I am only going to teach basic obedience for now (except if a dog works out for my dad). After more experience, I would like to be able to go work for a service dog professional trainer/company. 1stdog, Cocker Spaniel – This dog was professionally trained before I got her. I continued to work with her trainer to learn. 2nddog, mixed GSD/lab/chow- This dog I took to the professional trainer. I worked with the trainer to learn how to start from the beginning. 3rddog, mixed blue heeler – This dog I trained myself with support from the trainer. I made some rookie mistakes that the trainer had to undo. Baron has what I consider a high prey drive. He chases everything that runs (my cats have learned to go for the nearest tree if they see him). He is also very alpha. He and I have a “discussion” at least once a year on who is top dog. He is all I can handle at this level. I am not willing at this time to take another dog like him. 5thdog, Rose – This one I did all myself. When I wanted to expand her training, I talked to a number of professionals and did a lot of research. (She is kind of rusty right now on anything beyond the basics; we have not done anything extensive since she got pregnant.) This is my service dog. She was not o 6thdog, Lab/Rotti mix – This one is my newest project (other than the puppies). He is 14 months old. He has been taught all the basics and is doing wonderful. When I got him, he had a bad case of cowardness; everything frightened him (loud noises, anything large and unfamiliar). We have really been working on this. He can now go into a large crowd calmly. He no longer runs from loud noises; he will still kind of back off, but then he will go investigate. So far, no large things have bothered him since this last fall. I am taking him to an auction this weekend. |
fawndallas by Hundmutter on 30 April 2012 - 11:15 |
| Okay, this post seems to be about 'done' now, so I just want to use it to explain my current thinking properly; felloffher, workingdogz and Blackthorn get ready to jump all over me again if you like ! but I gotta say this stuff: GSDGuy asks whether I've attended any PSA events - specifically PSA , nope. I'm in the UK and as far as I am aware PSA hasn't infiltrated yet. But I have occasionally surfed the PSA site. Because I have always supported the range of sports as I believe GSDs are a 'working' breed and always should have opportunities to do some kind of task, even though for reasons of time/money/health I am unable to participate in anything really strenuous myself, I have watched a variety of working trials, I've seen British Schutzhund Association members train and compete with their dogs, I have attended a number of Police Inter-regional competitions, watched a lot of videos (mostly direct from Germany, but also a number of American ones), regularly read reports on the Dutch, Belgian etc Trials, I read training books, comments and articles whenever I can get hold of them. You all must decide for yourselves whether that gives me a right to hold an opinion; I think that, coupled with all the miles I've walked GSDs, all the food I've fed GSDs, all the GSDs I've done basic obedience training with, all the shit I've swept up after GSDs, over the past 4 1/2 decades, it does. Brynjulf is about the first person I have ever heard equate having a 'Hard Dog' with one having NO 'drive'. I know its possible to find 3 pages of waffle 'defining' what is meant by 'hard', but scratch the surface and it always comes back to: aggression towards the owner / handler, and/or dog aggression, and/or sheer bloodymindness in not obeying commands quickly enough, esp. in locking-on with a bite, or in coming off of a bite. It is almost exclusively boasted of, rather than bemoaned, when folk involved in competition use the term, and consequently always goes hand-in-hand with how powerful the dog is, how much drive its considered to have, and so on. |Perfect example: "Brutus is a hard dog, weighs 95 lb. We expect Brutus to pass his size and his hardness on to his progeny." Direct quote from Teufel Hunden website, this is the sire I believe of the litter Fawndallas initially expressed interest in. This is also the site running the video I referred to. Yes, workingdogz, it does seem to be a regular PSA exercise. I'd always understood that the main reason (apart from convenience to participants in having the space) SchH trials etc are held on sports fields - with the singular exception of the Countryside section of French Ring - is to avoid confusing the dogs; what they are doing is NOT "everyday life", it is a distinct sporting activity, where they are playing bite games, in a stylised environment; they are not actually being trained to go and bite someone just because he looks the wrong way at their owner. What is happening here blurs that distinction. A few years ago I would have given the same arguments about if a dog bites its handler, give it a job to do, the training will straighten it out, a trained dog is always controllable, better to have in public, yadayadayada. That however was before the increase in interest in Hundsport, the rush to collect E German and Czech dogs, the anecdotes starting to circulate about problems with / misuse of these lines, which were not good to hear. Not to mention seeing videos that make one go "WTF?". You cannot kid me that there are no dogs or handlers out there who DID NOT make the 80s & 90s in Points at clubs, give up and walk away. If they have been part-trained, using suspect techniques and dummies/helpers, then we need to show caution. Also: "Circumstances can create their own problems. Having a house dog eager to protect requires a balanced approach that many owners and dogs cannot match up to. From time to time the breeding of GSDs changes. If breeders are not careful, we can have too many dogs that are just windy or we can have too many that are hard and uncompromising. Whatever the purposes in breeding, the majority of stock goes into the homes of the general public. One problem dog is one too many." John Cree. He wrote that around the turn of this century - its still true. Linda. |
Hundmutter by Donald Harris on 10 May 2012 - 00:18 |
| Hello, I'm the owner of Brutus and he is a very stable sweet dog. I will answer some of the questions that have been posted. First off Brutus is the best dog I have and is excellent with my 3 yr old. Shell be 4 in September. They are best buds and do everything together. She has even rode him like a horse several times. I have pictures. Lol. Now the man who's being bitten by him is not wearing a suit but a hidden sleeve. This is a scenario of psa called car jacking. Yes Brutus is extreme! Has high aggression and prey drive. He is not the dog for someone who has no experience but a lot of his pups are in homes with children and have no issues. Not all puppies come out bitting anything that moves. This is why I match every pup to every buyers needs. If I don't have a pup to suit your needs then I don't sell you one. Ask anyone who has got a pup from me. My first question is email me exactly what you want and what it will be used for. Now back to Brutus he's excellent in the house. Lays down most the day and chews on his bone or ball. At night when I go to bed he follows me upstairs lays next to the bed until I fall asleep them he waits at the stairs for my wife and daughter to come up. Then sleeps in my daughters room. This is his routine. Yes some of his puppies are extreme and have high levels of aggression but those dogs only go to people who want and can handle that type of dog. Also brutus will NOT bite anyone especially children whether they have ballons or not without my command! Yes he was fired up in the car thats because we were training for competition and he was given his attack command! Also one major thing to note is his age. Brutus will be 7yrs old in may and he still has the energy of a pup when needed. Now that's longivity in his line. What more could you ask for in a dog. If anyone has any more questions please give me a call. |
by YogieBear on 10 May 2012 - 00:38 |
| You have to respect that!!!!!!! Fool!!!!!! newbee..!!!!........ thinking he might need more than he can handle......... Might be more than a world class handler can handle.............Cheers!!!! nice dog... Yogie |
YogieBear by destiny4u on 10 May 2012 - 00:51 |
| when people say hard they are not being clear what they are talking about, i have seen a handler hard dog that would probably run from a little kid if it thought the kid was a danger but the dog could take a crazy correction and not care? There seems to be 2 kinds of hard. |
by Gustav on 10 May 2012 - 02:16 |
| Headmutter, with all due respect, it is eveident your views of certain types of dogs are from reading and watching. And of course you are entitled to your opinion as anyone else, but I am sure you would be reluctant to take seriously opinions of people without hands on knowledge. I just went to see a 12 week puppy out of this kennel and sire. This is a very well adjusted puppy that lives in the home and has wonderful nerve and balance of drives. I observed the puppy for 3 hours and worked with him and owners and left feeling very impressed with the breeder. |
by Slamdunc on 10 May 2012 - 02:34 |
| I think we need another thread defining what "hard" is. I guess the first 79 threads didn't cover the concept very well. I'll have to start another thread discussing terms and behaviors like "hard" and "drives." |
Slamdunc by brynjulf on 10 May 2012 - 02:51 |
| Slamdunc, no one will ever agree on the terms. I just doesnt seem possible. For me "hardness" has absolutely NOTHING to do with drive. Drives are drives period. Hardness describes the temperment of an animal. A hard dog will run through thorns, a soft dog will stop cuz it hurts. A Hard dog will not stop an action if pain is involved a soft dog will stop the action. A hard dog recovers or ignores a correction, a soft dog will respond quickly to the correction and is slow or unforgiving in its recovery. A hard dog will keep working even when injured severly, broken leg, knife in the chest they just keep coming. But a Hard dog CAN be handler sensitive and a soft dog can be handler aggressive soooooo...... :P When did drives become a description of temperment anyhow? Why is it so confusing? |
by Slamdunc on 10 May 2012 - 03:04 |
| It is really not confusing for those that actually work dogs, we all know what we mean. It can be a very difficult concept for someone to grasp that has limited experience. If a person's experience is limited to reading books and the internet; things like drive, hardness, civil, aggression, etc can be hard concepts to understand. |
by Donald Harris on 10 May 2012 - 03:30 |
| Destiny, A hard dog is a dog that will not give up in the fight. A handler aggressive dog is a entire diff story! Everyone's definition is different but usually are pretty close in terms. So what's not clear in people's post about hard dogs? Thanks Clifton crixus was my pick male. He's amazing! |
by Slamdunc on 10 May 2012 - 03:52 |
| Brynjulf, Your definition is fairly close to mine. Hardness is not always about the fight, that may be a component but not everything. Hardness, IMHO is not necessarily about fighting. Hardness can be seen in bird dogs, agility dogs, OB and tracking. In dogs that are never put into a fight and never would bite a person. Any dog can be made to give up a fight with the proper stress and circumstances. |
by brynjulf on 10 May 2012 - 04:18 |
| Slamdunc, our definitions are close because we actually have our hands on dogs :) When you see it , you know what it is. How many times have you banged your head against a wall wondering if the dog is hard or mentally retarded! You think to yourself, "I have corrected you for that 85 times and you are still doing it". Still havent figured out if "hard" = special needs or not :) I'll let you know if I ever figure it out :) You all can keep your hard dogs :) I want a dog that is middle of the road with balanced drives and TONS of BIDDABILITY. Give me a dog that turns itself inside out over a hard dog any day . |
by Slamdunc on 10 May 2012 - 04:46 |
| I would change your corrections and approach. My dogs are smart and thinkers. I prefer to teach the dog low in drive, get the desired behavior and up the rewards. Once the dog understands and performs extremely reliably I proof and and add in distractions or temptations. At this point I usually only need to correct once. Contrary to my participating on this forum I am not a fan of banging my head against a wall. I certainly do everything I can to avoid getting frustrated when training my dogs. When that happens I change my approach, my rewards and the consequences. Again, unlike some of the threads on here I do not repeat things that obviously do not work or get through to my dogs. Fortunately for me, my dog is far smarter than some folks on here. He is a pleasure to work with. Present company excluded; I am not referring to anyone on this thread. I do know what you are saying. I have a female that is very high prey drive and very possessive of her toys. She can be a complete pain in the butt unless I am prepared. Sweetest dog in the world, lots of fun to work until the training is over and I am taking her back to the car. She would rip my pants and shirts to get to her kong back. I felt like a chip and dales dancer with my clothes being torn off. That only happened a few times till I learned to outsmart her. |
by Chaz Reinhold on 10 May 2012 - 05:05 |
| Brynjulf, when is the last time you had your hands on a really hard dog? |
Chaz Reinhold by brynjulf on 10 May 2012 - 05:09 |
| But she did teach you something :) you may have ended up semi clad but it was a good motivator for you! That is what it is all about :) I'm a big fan of changing things up when one approach doesnt work myself. ( but alas some dogs are strong like ox, smart like stick. ) Look at how far training has come over the last 20 years. It is truely amazing! If a trainer isnt flexible they are in for a very very rough road. Always something we can learn from the next dog we run into.... |
by brynjulf on 10 May 2012 - 05:14 |
| Chaz, the last dog I had out here that was really hard was the Ellute son from California. But the hardest critter I have ever worked was a Dalmation. He was just in for 2 weeks basic obedience. They are two weeks that I will never forget! Toughest critter I have ever met up with. He was not aggressive in any way just tough as nails. |
by yellowrose of Texas on 10 May 2012 - 05:31 |
| Fawndallas needs to raise the two pups she has out of her mom dog..then and after that she can visit some clubs near or far and get some MEntoring>>> SHE has no business with a german shepherd advertised for or from breedings that Slamdunc, bruny, me, Chez, or any of us would pick. SHE HAS CHILDREN, so the high drive whether prey or others, that this pup of MR> HARRIS' would not work at this time..NOW In 2 yrs maybe she will have learned and gotten some experience under her belt and be ready for a dog of this quality. We all forget that we have children ,yes, but we all have tons of experience , training skills, and we know how and when and what to do . We are all trainers, most to perfection and most of us have great talent in it and we know how to protect our homes from accidents and our kids have inner knowledge , because they live it like we do...they were raised with a parent who lives it.. REMember THAT IS NOT fAWNDALLAS...WE FORGET our kids are not her kids.. SHe NEEDS A LITTLE experience with the pups she just now had then learn more and she is asking questions and that is a BIGGY.. She has her hands full with pups right now and she is doing great by looking at pictures and ads here and asking US> keep asking Fawn dallas....this is how you learn.. Look up some clubs you can visit when your two pups get about 5 months old...this will be a way to start and get some hands on.. Yr |
yellowrose of Texas by Hundmutter on 10 May 2012 - 07:19 |
| When the OP originally asked about whether the ad she had seen for a stud dog was known to be any good and if folk on here could recommend her buying a puppy from his lines, she said she didn't want a Showline GSD, and "Strong Protection Drive would be OK ... but not if it's so strong I have to worry about children". Fawndallas also asked what "Hard dog" meant, in the context of the advert. She DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT WORKING OR COMPETING WITH THE PUP ONCE SHE HAD BOUGHT IT. So, several of us replied, in our various ways, that maybe she did not want to go for offspring of this particular dog / this working line, as it might well be more than she could handle. [It seemed to be a completely separate query from her breeding adventure with Rose.] I still think this was the right general line to take. Despite the likes of Donald Harris wanting to advertise their own stock. {Keith - you were so right !} Trying to use 'shorthand' rather than write essays explaining what one means is often difficult in these situations, and my quick response got me "sat on", with people sending links to videos of their small daughters working their dogs etc. Hence my further posting when I thought this thread was 'done'. I notice no PSA people have attempted to answer the point I made about 'blurring the lines' between established methodology and their different version of an acceptable exercise environment. "Back in the day" there really wasn't anything too special about the definition of a "hard" dog - it meant (and was then understood to mean, both in SchutzHund circles and among breeders generally) a dog that displayed determination and quick recovery. So if you threw a ball in the undergrowth, he would not give up looking for it; if something scared him or you accidentally trod on his foot, he would "get over it" and bounce back to normal, pdq. In other words, be like a GSD was supposed to be, not like some pet Pekinese (sorry, Peke lovers!) Protection work being the definitive example, but not the only one. Over the years this has all got corrupted, so now some people may be clear about what they are talking about, and a helluver lot of others - including some of those working and selling dogs - clearly are not. Yes I have picked this up from over hearing conversations, reading reports etc rather than working Protection myself - but so what ? If you only hear what people in your own Club tell you, isn't that just as likely to get distorted / omit details & history ? |
by workingdogz on 10 May 2012 - 10:06 |
| "A dog with good nerve strength is a joy. He can be trusted with children. He is never a bully, he's got nothing to prove because he knows he can handle any situation that should arise. And only a well bred dog with solid nerves is the dog you can rely upon to keep you safe." - Joy Tiz |
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