German Shepherd Dog > r u kidding me? (65 replies)
by joanro on 29 April 2012 - 13:22
|Those are strange looking exrays. To me, it looks like one is of a hock joint and the other an elbow.|
by beetree on 29 April 2012 - 13:34
|How could that happen??? Still, we can absolutely say that they ARE NOT HIPS!|
by Jenni78 on 29 April 2012 - 13:36
|They are not hips.|
Hey, we agree, Beetree!
by magdalenasins on 29 April 2012 - 13:44
|Like may beget like but environment plays up to 75% with HD and ED I think? You can have a fantastic 8 week old puppy but if you decide to take it jogging for 2 hours every day I don't think it's little bones can handle that no matter how good the breeding is. Glad you're doing what you can to make him happy and healthy Jenni.|
by Gustav on 29 April 2012 - 13:56
|People are so fickle when it comes to hips and elbows....especially in USA and UK. It happens in the breed!! Period! It happens in dogs that are certified and it happens with dogs that are not certified. There are things you can do to decrease chances, ie... knowledge, testing, breeding trends of individuals, etc....still it will occur and people have to learn to understand this and try to minimize occurrences. So many "drama kings and queens" about hips and elbows.....so much negative gossip and energy about hips and elbows like it is a dirty secret that happened to only the breeder being whispered about. I have been in this breed a long time and I know of no breeders or lines or dogs not capable of producing this condition. Just takes the right(wrong) pair of dogs. That's why I respect the European countries(Germany, Czech, Belgium, Holland, etc) when it comes to this issue, as they are very realistic about the situation and thus don't give people false hope with guarantees. Everyone should be breeding for the total GS and good hips and elbows are a part of this quest....but some of the holier than thou attitudes like it can be prevented is hogwash! At least not at this time in the breed. JMO|
by joanro on 29 April 2012 - 13:59
|Jogging a puppy two hours every day is what I call forced exercise....not good! If that is an elbow on the right side of the picture, it sure is weird looking.|
by Gustav on 29 April 2012 - 14:07
|@ Maqdelansins....if HD is 75% environmental....then people shouldn't be worried about breeding mild and moderate dogs because the HD was more than likely a result of environmental stress and that wouldn't pass to the puppies......created things don't pass genetically....too many people handling their dogs with kid gloves and STILL producing HD for this to be valid.|
by Rik on 29 April 2012 - 14:08
|75% hd/ed caused by environment. might want to post a link to those studies.|
by Keith Grossman on 29 April 2012 - 14:39
|I don't know how many times we have to go through this. While environmental factors can exacerbate these conditions, HD and ED are 100% genetic. Calling a joint injury dysplasia is like calling a gunshot wound hemophilia.|
by Blitzen on 29 April 2012 - 14:42
|Of course some buyers are going to do stupid things with puppies (like jogging them for miles and putting them into a corral with horses). It is impossible to monitor every buyer and how they manage a dog. So either give a 100% guarantee against HD and UAP, whatever, or sell the puppies for a reasonable pet price with no guarantees. Leave out all this environmental BS, the shoulda, woulda, coulda that only benefits the breeder. It's part of doing business in the dog breeding world. Cut your losses and move on for gawd sake.|
I can't speak for the rest of you who didn't just fall off the turnip truck, but there is no way I would ever buy a dog from a breeder who only guarantees against "genetic" HD, UAP, etc. I'd much rather buy from a breeder who says - I only use normal dogs for breeding, but I don't guarantee that this dog will xray normal because...................fill in the blank.
75% environmental? I've not heard that nor do I believe it. If your "normal" dog is producing more HD than you like, if it was passed without being sedated, do it again, this time using sedation. If the dog was A stamped at 12 months, have it sedated and do it again. If the dog has sibs with moderate to severe, HD or ED, get a new dog. If you don't have 3, 4 generations of clear dogs with mostly clear sibs, get a new dog. Then see what results you are getting in 2, 3 generations.
Odds are we will never eliminate HD and ED form the gene pool 100% until more is known. Currently there are several studies ongoing. It's in the genes, baby.
by magdalenasins on 29 April 2012 - 14:55
|Hm I think it wasn't so much as a dog who can't get HD will get it 3 out of 4 times if exercised wrong so much as a dog that comes from a litter with 4 dogs who could all get HD and 3 pups are exercised slowly and built up to a good weight slowly will not have it be as much of an issue? Obviously a pup born with HD has HD but I think there are different stages of it and how a dog can cope or if it will need surgery? Good point with older dogs testing poorly though, I don't have studies just what I have been told which is get a well bred dog and keep it working slowly and eating slowly as 3 out of 4 times the owner can exacerbate HD.|
by brynjulf on 29 April 2012 - 15:01
|Pups around here are allowed as much excersise as they wish. No troubles with HD. It's genetic.|
by Blitzen on 29 April 2012 - 15:05
by jem38 on 29 April 2012 - 15:06
|What are the other health related problems that were mentioned?|
by Blitzen on 29 April 2012 - 15:06
Exercise may exacerbate the degree of HD/ED but IMO it won't cause it. That is OFA's opinion.
by Jenni78 on 29 April 2012 - 15:07
|On that, Brynjulf, I think free exercise is the way to go. It's when a dog gets little exercise, then has "weekend warrior" habits on occasion that joint damage can occur, since the body isn't accustomed to it. Hard surfaces are not a dog's natural environment, so subluxated joints slamming on hard surfaces could probably cause some damage. I haven't had HD issues either, but it makes sense to me. I raise pups as you do. They are loose and free 90% of the time, then they come inside for manners and family exposure time. I had a great article by a vet who feels a lot of "dysplasia" is actually injury from lack of exercise/fitness since so many pets are crated so often and let out for sudden bursts of exercise instead of living as they would in nature, traveling many miles per day on softer ground. |
LOL at Keith. Gunshot wound=hemophilia.
by Rik on 29 April 2012 - 16:27
|I was considering a w/l litter (couple of years ago) recommended by a poster here I respect. Looked great on paper, V rated parents, KKL1 and top rated in sport.|
The guarantee covered HD/ED. The next paragraph stated that they were not responsible for environmental causes of HD/ED, which pretty much cancels out any recourse. I passed, not because of the pup and this single issue, but the breeder.
by Jenni78 on 29 April 2012 - 16:49
|There is no contract that is going to cover everything. I say exactly that in my guarantee and that's why I just make it clear that whatever the age, whatever the reason, I will take that dog back. It's the only way I have found will safeguard the dog, which really is who the contract should protect. The people you can't trust are almost always motivated by money, I've found. It's sooo much easier to sleep at night if you throw some money at someone and tell them to go away than it is to worry about a dog you bred. That is the worst feeling.|
by duke1965 on 29 April 2012 - 17:08
I never had a written contract in 25 years of bouvier breeding refunded a pup two or three times and thats about it , same is happening with my GSD now for 5/6 years
by Blitzen on 29 April 2012 - 18:48
|Duke, I had the same experience with another large working breed. Started to sedate all my dogs when they were xrayed, didn't breed them before they were old enough for OFA when they revised their age limit, did my homework and learned as much as I could about which dogs were poor breeding risks. No more using dogs with sibs that were known to have moderate to severe HD, no more breeding to or from dogs that produced severe HD in their progeny, paying attention to the sibs of the parents. I went from 2 severe cases of HD out of 7 to zero HD in my last 3 litters totalling around 25 puppies and most were xrayed. As a big bonus my specialty winning dog never produced a single puppy that didn't get OFA clearance.|
Having said all of this, there is a caveat for this breed - it is not just about hips We have come to expect so much more from these GSD's - they need to have drive, the will to serve, intellgence, an obedient nature, and lots of other things we may not care about in other breeds. IMO that makes is more difficult to attain a no or very minimal percentage of HD in this breed without sacrificing something else that may be more valuable to breeders. Factor in that the average dog breeder last about 5 years, we have a whole new crop of people every 5 or so years who don't know mcuh about HD but breed anyway and drink all the Kool Aid they are spoon fed.
PS Duke, you mentioned your litters were inbred; IMO that will never fly in this breed where inbreeding and close linebreeding is equated to having sex with one's sibling