German Shepherd Dog > Linebreeding Experience (31 replies)
by wundergsd on 27 April 2012 - 16:20
Hello All, I'm currently looking into adding another addition to the family. Does anyone have experience with a pdigree where the parents of said puppy/dog share the same grandparents on each of the mothers side? Basically 25%-50% related in the 2nd generation. Is this acceptable in a pedigree or are the puppies at risk for birth defects, health issues, etc. i've seen several pedigrees where the Sire/Dam were repeatedly used on both sides to bring out certain traits and workability.
by ziegenfarm on 27 April 2012 - 16:21
|post the pedigree. it makes a difference what dogs you are talking about.|
by wundergsd on 27 April 2012 - 16:27
|Well I'm no help. The breeder doesn't have the parents listed on here. Pedigree is full of good hip scores and titles. Just want to know if linebreeding out of the 2nd/3rd gen. is acceptable.|
by Ramage on 27 April 2012 - 16:37
|IMO totally depends on the dogs. That said, I would probably not do it - but it is just my personal preference.|
by Keith Grossman on 27 April 2012 - 16:38
|Yes, if I am understanding you correctly, it's fine.|
by SitasMom on 27 April 2012 - 17:03
2/3 all depends on WHO, also on the other outcrossings...
it could be fantastic, or rittled with issues....
health, temperament, structure, etc...
such an open question cannot be answered
can you get a copy of the pedigree and list them yourself?
by trixx on 27 April 2012 - 19:28
|what you are saying if i got this right is a 3-3 linebreeding and if thats is right i have done a 3-3 line breeding before and would not do it again as i got minor flaws, like weak pastern and curls in tails, i am about breeding corect dogs , so would not do it again, but ofcoarse i cant say if it was from the linebreeding or the dad , the mom never had any of these problems before. that would be up to you as you can get both good and bad in the parents come out, breeding is a crap shoot any way.|
by duke1965 on 27 April 2012 - 19:51
|breeding is no crapshoot at all if you are linebreeding and start with good material , but it is much about the actual parents of the combination , so I agree with ziegenfarm , a ped would help|
I ve been doing very close inbreedings for several decades and allways had healthy dogs that lived to old ages and gave big litters so no worries there
by swingfield on 27 April 2012 - 20:31
|Breeding any breed is no "crap shoot"..That is the motto of a backyard breeder that doesnt care what that litter will become and we want to improve the breed.. not "gamble".. German Shepherd breeders here have relied on the expertise of German experts that have approved the breedings of specific bloodlines "before" they are bred.. not process of elmination of getting a bad litter.. ('Oooops shouldnt do that again'..just put 8-10 poor quality pups into the world).. hence linebreeding of proven bloodlines. We here in US need to do our research before we just breed 3/3 especially 2/2.. you could really hit a very bad cross on certain health issues! do your research.. not trying to beat a dead horse.. but it is not a clear cut answer here! use common sense and check any and 'all' generations for anything that 'rings' a bell ! we have enough sub par breeders out there spitting out 'oops' litters. be dilegent and faithful to our breed.. good luck to you!!|
by duke1965 on 27 April 2012 - 20:44
|swingfield your on the wrong track , if a certain dog can and will produce health issues , that same dog can and will also produce and or pass on those bad genes/health issues when outcrossed with , it is not the system of breeding that is the problem,but the used material and improper selection|
most people who will tell you that linebreeding is bad,when asked where they got that wisdom the answer is allways , someone told me or I red it somewhere
in most breeds there are many outcrossed dogs , are they without any health problems , if so every breed would be perfect if only outcrossed ,
by swingfield on 27 April 2012 - 22:22
|I agree Duke.. but sadly I was just helping with advice on 'gambling' on linebreeding! I agree with outcrossing (hybrid vigor) .. just sayin is all...and they are still going to breed and rebreed these dogs (and linebreed) that carry certain traits.. it was just my opinion on this concern! Thanks for the advice too!|
by Keith Grossman on 28 April 2012 - 00:08
|With all due respect, Swingfield, you have no idea what you're talking about. Every breeding is, in fact, a crap shoot. Just because we think we might know how genetics might mix in any given litter doesn't mean they will necessarily cooperate.|
by wundergsd on 28 April 2012 - 01:18
|Thanks to everyone for their input. So some are saying a 3-3 breeding is ok and some say no... To my understanding a breeding of 3-3 is doubling up on the good and also the bad and as one put it, making the bloodlines stronger too. The parents look to be 2nd cousins.|
by SitasMom on 28 April 2012 - 01:32
|making the bloodline stronger or weaker...|
by live4schutzhund on 28 April 2012 - 15:48
|This will give you an idea of the complexity involved with breeding dogs. Once you understand it, then take another look at the pedigree and ask more questions.|
CANINE GENETICS…THINGS EVERY “BREEDER” SHOULD KNOW"As I have become more involved with “breeders” in the canine world I have come to realize there is a substantial need for knowledge on the fundamentals of genetics and heredity. What will be discussed here has long been accepted as factual and fundamental…and has been developed by the study of genetics in scientifically controlled breeding populations. It is not speculation, but is based upon years of research from actual experiments and thousands of tests from both within the lab and within the field. This report will largely be based on the fundamentals of gamete formation and recombination. This report is just meant to provide a simple understanding of the fundamentals of genetics and should not be used exclusively to determine breeding pairs; however, understanding these fundamentals should help enable one to obtain their breeding goals. A common goal in developing lines or “breeds” of dogs is consistency. The desire for consistency has lead to a large number of breeders to use line breeding and inbreeding, but those that don’t understand what is going on at a genetic level should not use such breeding methods. Line breeding and inbreeding has its place within a breeding program when used properly. Unfortunately, many breeders fix genetics disorders within a gene pool or line as a result of inappropriately using these tactics due to a lack of understanding of the basics of genetics. This is why inbreeding is illegal among human populations. My purpose for writing this report is to enable breeders that wish to learn the fundamentals of genetics to do so…therefore, enabling them with their decision making of when to use the different types of breeding approaches (out-crossing, line-breeding, or inbreeding) within their breeding program.
Before we begin discussing how gamete formation and recombination occurs, lets go over a few terms…
Genetics – the study of heredity.
Heredity – the passing of traits (characteristics) from parent to offspring. Genetic heredity is based on genetics from the inheritance of alleles.
Gamete – a sex cell (sperm in males and eggs in females)
Sperm – a male gamete
Egg – a female gamete
Zygote – a fertilized egg. This includes the genetic information from the egg and sperm combined into one cell.
DNA – deoxyribonucleic acid. Basically these are 4 nucleotides (ATGC) that make up the alleles and genetic codes within the genome (the instructions) of an organism.
Chromosome – a thread like structure that is formed in mitosis and meiosis that contains the DNA.
Genome – The entire genetic code of an organism’s DNA. There are tens of thousands (20,000-30,000+) of loci within a genome.
Loci – the location of a trait within the genome is referred to as a trait’s loci.
Monogenic trait - a trait that is controlled by a single loci.
Polygenic trait - a trait that is influenced by more than one loci.
Trait – in this report, this term will distinguish a characteristic that may be passed from parent to offspring. Many people get trait mistaken with loci. The alternate forms of a trait are referred to as alleles. For example…such as “coat color.” Within our example "coat color" would be the trait, while red, black, white, etc would be the allele possibilities of this trait.
Allele – the alternative forms of a trait.
Genotype – The genetic code (the combination of alleles) for a given trait.
Phenotype – The trait that is expressed for a given trait.
Homozygous – Homo means the same. Zygous refers to the zygote (a fertilized egg where the sperm’s and egg’s contributions for a trait are the same). Therefore, “homozygous” refers to the alleles for a given trait (the genotype) within the zygote being the same.
Heterozygous – Hetero means different. Zygous refers to the zygote. “Heterozygous” refers to the alleles for a given trait (the genotype) within the zygote being the different.
Meiosis – Cell division in which gametes are formed from stem cells within the ovaries or testis. Meiosis is responsible for producing the different combinations of gametes a parent is capable of producing.
Mitosis – normal cell division in which daughter cells are identical to the parent cells. This type of cell division is the driving force for growth by cell reproduction and not species reproduction.
Humans have 23 pairs (46 total) of homologous chromosomes. The entire set of chromosomal pairs is known as the genome. In canines, the number of chromosomal pairs is 39. Think of these "pairs" as being analogous to one right shoe (a father's chromosome) pairing up with one left shoe (a mother's chromosome) to make one pair of shoes (a homologous pair of chromosomes). Dogs have 39 pairs of homologous chromosomes, creating a diploid total of 78 chromosomes in all. Of these 78 chromosomes, 39 (one set) came from the mother and each chromosome pairs up with its partner homologous chromosome obtained from the father. The picture above reveals this pairing and is called a karyotype.
The alleles that control the various traits are assigned to specific loci (addresses) within the genome. Each chromosome is so precisely arranged with its pair that the alleles for each loci from each parent line up side by side with those from the other parent. Some traits are “simple” and only have one loci. These traits are referred to as “monogenic” traits. Some traits are “complex” and are influenced by many loci (quantitative traits or polygenic traits). For every trait, each parent donates one allele at each loci. I will come back to this later in more detail.
Upon fertilization (the point at which a single sperm unites with the egg), the newly formed zygote now contains one allele from each parent for each loci within the entire genome (excluding the sex chromosomes). Therefore, every organism has 2 alleles per loci, 1 from the mother + 1 from the father. Both parents are equally responsible for an offspring’s genotype, except for the sex chromosomes (and the mitochondrial DNA, which comes from the mother). The female “X” chromosome that comes from the mother does contain a small portion of information (relatively few traits in relative terms) not found on the “Y” chromosome. Because sex-linked traits are not something we generally hear about in dogs, I will not go into great detail of sex-linked traits at this time but I will briefly mention if a trait is sex linked (found on the X chromosome and not found on the Y chromosome), the expression of an allele is determined by its sole presence on the X chromosome. For traits found in this region of the X chromosome, only one allele will determine the expression of a trait, while all other traits (those found in shared areas of the X/Y Chromosomes or on any of the other sex chromosomes), two alleles (or more for quantitative traits) are needed to determine the expression of a trait. Mitochondrial DNA is passed down to offspring via the mother, and it has been suggested that maternal mitochondrial DNA may play some role in the metabolism of the offspring.
As mentioned earlier, some traits are simple and controlled by a single loci. These monogenic traits are easy to work with and begin to understand, but the polygenic traits (quantitative traits), are much more complex and offer an array of phenotypes making things much more difficult and time consuming to understand as there are many influential genes. Just as weight is clearly influenced by a genetic predisposition for height, thickness, muscle mass, fat content, bone density, etc, there are traits that are influenced by alleles at many loci. As a result, polygenic traits tend to be exceedingly much more difficult to select for and may require many generations of very knowledgeable and selective breeding to even begin making progress towards a specific goal.
Most breeders tend to understand the basic concept of dominance and recessive, but many breeders don’t realize not all genes are so simply defined. As mentioned earlier…for each loci, there is a single allele from each parent that is paired up with a single allele from the other parent. Depending on the trait, some alleles (alternate forms of a trait) may be dominant, recessive, co-dominant, or incompletely dominant to a paired allele. It isn’t always a complete dominance in which one dominant allele suppresses a recessive allele.
If complete dominance is found for the trait of interest, then the offspring only needs one allele within the genotype for the desired phenotype. If the desired form of a trait is recessive, then the offspring needs to have a homozygous recessive genotype. In the heterozygous allelic combination is obtained in traits defined by dominance/recessive traits the phenotypic outcome of such an individual is no different than is seen in a homozygous dominant individual. However, when a trait is defined by co-dominant or incompletely dominant alleles and a heterozygous combination, the outcome will be blending of the two phenotypes. For example…lets say we are working with the color of an organism and for this trait (color gene) we define the alleles (the alternate forms) as black or white. In all cases of homozygous combinations the color will be pure, but when we obtain heterozygous individuals the outcomes will vary based upon how the traits are defined (complete dominance=only one color is expressed as it dominates the other option completely; incomplete dominance=blending of the two forms in a gray like shade; co-dominance=striped like a zebra). This becomes more complicated if a trait is also quantitative.
See below for a over simplified diagram (concern of only one trait at a time) of basic genetics…
Assuming a trait is completely dominant and desired (the desired trait dominates the recessive trait) and controlled by a single loci…
F = allele designated for the favorable trait (which we will assign as dominant in this case for illustration purposes)
f = allele designated for the undesired trait
1st generation cross…(assuming you don’t breed to any undesired phenotypes)
In our example, we are given a father that is homozygous for the favorable trait = FF (meaning he inherited an F from his mother and an F from his father)
In our example, we are given a mother that is heterozygous for the favorable trait = Ff (meaning she inherited an F from one of her parents but an f from the other parent)
FF x Ff…when mating these two they both will select one of their alleles to donate to the
offspring creating offspring that are influenced 50% by each parent. This can produce only 2 outcomes…Regardless of which F the father donates, because he is homozygous his donation is the same…but the mother was heterozygous; therefore, the offspring will be FF (if the mother donates a F) or Ff (if the mother donates a f).
A test cross is possible to determine if an individual was homozygous (FF) or heterozygous (Ff) within its genotype if the trait is controlled by complete dominance. To do this would require breeding to an unfavorable recessive phenotype (ff). If your selected specimen for the desired trait was homozygous then crossing FF to ff would produce 100% offspring of Ff and although all would carry the unfavored trait none would express it. If you do this it would be best to require these animals to go to pet homes with a spay or neuter contract since all would be carriers. If your selected specimen was heterozygous (Ff) then breeding to a homozygous recessive (ff) would cause 50% to be Ff (carriers) and the other 50% to be ff and actually display the undesired trait. The cost of doing a test cross is it produces an entire litter of culls to determine if the desired parent was a carrier or not even though they did not express the trait. Carriers can live fine but should not be bred hap hazardously.
A question of concern however is although it is clear you can select for a given trait, what is happening to the other traits in the mean time…for millions of loci are being recombined and millions of loci are being passed from parent to offspring, not just the one you are looking at. Being there are many genetic disorders out there in heterozygous and unexpressed forms (Ff) at individual loci combining them with themselves (line breeding or inbreeding will produce FF, Ff, and ff genotypes. The reason it is not common for out-crossing to produce this problem is because it is not likely that two unrelated individuals carry the same disorder (recessive allele at the same loci). It is very possible to fix a trait (dominant or recessive) into a line and not know it for several generations. “Fixing” a trait into a line is a result of actually increasing the allelic frequency that causes the expression. In-breeding through out a line repeatedly exposes the common “inbred” traits to others with the same “inbred” traits, and can fix a trait into a gene pool. Therefore, when line-breeding or inbreeding, it is usually best to minimize the number of common dogs (dog of focus) you are inbreeding with in each line at any specific breeding. Out-crosses maintain “hybrid vigor.” In-breeding an exceptional individual or line breeding off of a single exceptional individual is reasonable in order to increase consistency. However, being each common relative will carry some disorders, the more common individuals you have on both the top and bottom of a pedigree the more likely you are to have genetic disorders as well. Which is why I believe in/line-breeding is best done if only done by focusing on one common dog (who can be used multiple times if so desired). If you wish to inbreed down from more than one dog, I believe it is best to focus on one dog for at least 3 generations before in/line-breeding on another dog into the line in order to prevent unknowingly introducing recessive undesired traits within a line and not knowing where they came from. If one inbreeds down from two dogs at one time (as is done with full-sibling breedings that share both parents) you are likely to drastically compound the number of problems you will have…and you won’t be able to identify which grandparent is the problem...although in some cases such a breeding may be highly desired, I don't believe it should be a common practice to breed full siblings for this reason. Although a father-daughter or mother-son breedings are just as tight as are full-sibling breedings, they differ in the fact that they focus on a single individual (the one common parent), so when a strength or problem presents itself one knows the source. The more different dogs you inbreed in a line (upclose…within the last 3 or so generations) on both the top and bottom the more disorders you are going to have to deal with (in multiple mind you) while doing your selection…this makes your work more difficult. It is best to maintain the positive goals while minimizing the negative risks, which can be done my minimizing the inbreed individuals in a line you are working with.
By focusing on an individual you can have that parent both on the top and the bottom. Half siblings (a good line breeding method with one common parent) or parent-child (if you wish to do a very tight breeding in-breeding) for example, only recombines the traits from this single specimen including the positives and negatives of a single specimen. Being it should only be done with exceptional specimens, you are increasing the desired traits along with the unseen (most likely heterozygous) disorders of only a single dog.
H. Lee Robinson, M.S. in Animal Sciences"
by Ibrahim on 28 April 2012 - 17:08
|Linebreeding ........linebreeding.........linebreeding, we hear this term a lot, and some make glamorous talk about it. Before I proceed further, I take high interest in breeding and genetics but have no personal experience in breeding, so all what I will say is only an amateur thoughts. For a specific breed the wider the gene pool the better even if the breed was started from few dogs, human race was started from one man, Adam. The more bloodlines in a specific breed the better for that breed and more choices for breeders, it is a benefit to be made use of, that's why it is a mistake Show breeders are not using work blood in their programs, hence the diversity is wasted.|
I paid good attention to continuous reasoning by Duke to explain that linebreeding in itself is not a bad thing but wrongly using it is the bad thing, but I say linebreeding has become a fantasy when it does not have a visible proved impact on the offspring. Parents have direct influence on the offspring then to a less extent the grand parents, beyond that the influence is minimum and in my opinion it is negligible. Without any linebreeding there can't be considerable influence on the offspring from the great grandparents (3rd generation), only when there is linebreeding 3-3 that those grandparents may influence the offspring but to lesser extent compared to that from parents and grand parents. This "linebreeding" has really become a fantasy we like to believe in and convince ourselves of its impact, what influence does 5-5 linebreeding make on the offspring?!!!
I think breeding to same type with no common ancestors is healthier for the offspring and assures good results in regards to type and consistency.
There are more important things to understand and do than linebreeding to succeed in a breeding program, first of which is knowing and understanding your dogs and this comes mainly from living with them, watching them grow, share various experiences with them, work them, and training is part of this experience to better know and understand them.
Choosing the right male for the female is the second important thing, and best is when the male is your own so you be sure of your thorough knowledge of him.
While training and titling is a good thing as an experience and as a measuring tool for the dogs, it is also a negative thing for those who did not live with the dog as it works in many cases as a fooling mask of the genetic weakenesses of the dog a good trainer puts on dogs.
If it were possible it is of great benefit to keep a dog green and evaluate it without external influence from human.
Linebreeding is given more value than it really should, and beyond 3-3 its effect, in my opinion, should not be considered.
by duke1965 on 28 April 2012 - 17:52
|Ibrahim , first of all you say you have no breeding experience , but I must say you think about things very well and that cannot be said about many who do breed , however there are a few problems in your line of thinking|
you say , the more bloodlines in a breed the better for the breed
I totally agree on this one , my question to you is ,how do we keep separate bloodlines available
you say ,I think breeding to same type with no common ancestors is healthier for the offspring
again I agree , but are they healthier genetically as well or still carrying and reproducing the problem they genetically carry but are not showing, so isnt this in fact a one generation solution pushing the genetic problems forward to the next generations
next question; how many generations do you think you can really outcross(in any breed) before being forced to start doubling up names on the pedigree
next question; how does group of lions(for example) get to outcross every next generation
finally you say you dont have breeding experience , I do, for about 26 years and here is one result of inbreeding(we have much more)
Harras Suzy van de Duca Vallei multi winner/champion Top producer
Belgium working certificat
EYES CLEAR (tested on 5 different points)
by duke1965 on 28 April 2012 - 18:05
|want to add that the bouvier we started out with 26 years ago is still behind all this|
by Ibrahim on 28 April 2012 - 18:08
|Duke, the more one thinks of it the more complicated it gets, those questions are depressing|
by joanro on 28 April 2012 - 18:41
|Duke, I'm always interested and learn from your posts. That's why I'm going to mention that for some reason(maybe the picture), the sentences are cut off at the end in that post with the bouv on the sleeve. Thanks, Joan|