German Shepherd Dog > Ok to ask Buyers to Neuter/Spay puppy? (73 replies)
by Smiley on 22 April 2012 - 17:00
|I respect your opinion and would agree with it 99% of the time but not in this particular instance!!|
Why don't you tell the OP exactly where to go to acquire a dog that has a 4 generation pedigree of proven service dogs in each generation so that they may contact the breeder to buy one? I am sure you can direct them to a breeder who can provide such a proven 4 generation service dog pedigree to ensure that all service dog genes are being properly expressed in both phenotype and genotype.
by GSD2727 on 22 April 2012 - 17:20
|To the OP, if the purpose was to get puppies to train for service work... why wouldnt you have looked for puppies/young dogs in rescues and shelters? May take a little time to find ones that are suitable but not impossible at all! I am sure GSD rescues across the country would have been happy to help you look for puppies who would be suitable if you would have gotten the word out about your plan/mission. Rather then creating more unregistered dogs, why not save some of the ones who need homes and would be suitable for this? |
I also find it interesting that the OP plans to keep/train all of these puppies. Wouldn't it take a big team to properly raise/train that many puppies at the same time for something like service dog work? Maybe she does have a huge team in place? but just seems odd.
I just cannot agree with or understand the "need" to breed unregistered GSDs, for any reason. There are so many GSDs out there - with good breeders/pedigrees and in shelters with unknown history. You CAN find GSDs suitable to be service dogs. You do not NEED to create unregistered ones yourself. JMO of course.
by Smiley on 22 April 2012 - 17:34
OP is using her personal service dog as a brood bitch.....who is proven in that regard (as an active service dog). She said multiple times not going into breeding business but training business. It's ONE litter. Lighten up....trust me....the world and breed as we know it will not end!!
Ok, this is my last post......please carry on without my comments!!
by Sunsilver on 22 April 2012 - 18:37
|I also find it interesting that the OP plans to keep/train all of these puppies. Wouldn't it take a big team to properly raise/train that many puppies at the same time for something like service dog work? Maybe she does have a huge team in place? but just seems odd. |
NOWHERE in her posts does the OP state that! Please READ WHAT SHE SAID! She is going to keep one or two of the puppies, give those with SD potential to SD organizations, and find responsible pet homes for the rest!
The dog she bred is HER OWN service dog. She has M.S., so I doubt she would be up to training all the puppies, even if that were the plan.
Were you aware that many police dogs don't have papers? Why don't you go pick on them instead? What matters here is the dog's ability, same as in police work. Papers don't matter at all.
by Keith Grossman on 22 April 2012 - 23:20
|I'm sorry but I have to agree with Valerie. I'm sure that lots of people have unregistered dogs that they think are the ideal dog for (fill in the blank) and we would not hesitate to tell those people they shouldn't breed those dogs and with very good reason. This particular dog's use as a service dog doesn't change that any more than it would for any other dog being used for any other purpose. Having papers on a dog gives a breeder the ability to not only consider that individual's contribution to its progeny but those of his/her ancestors as well...both temperamentally and/or physically...good and bad. It matters little if this dog is free of HD, for example, if there is a high incidence of it in previous generations. I'm sure the traits the OP values could be found in many, many dogs with papers and known ancestory.|
I also take issue with the suggestion that many police dogs don't have papers and/or come from unknown bloodlines. Yes, we've all read the stories about the occaisional dog that was found in a shelter and trained to work in some law enforcement capacity but lets be honest; those dogs are the exception, not the rule and they aren't being used for breeding.
by fawndallas on 23 April 2012 - 02:36
|Thank you all, both for your support and your clear questions/concerns about what I have done. Some of your questions have made me think.|
I fully understood that without Rose's pedigree, I was taking a large chance. I did everything I could to insure Roses health and breeding quality. One thing that I ask everyone to keep in mind...the different breeding lines of GSDs started somewhere. Pedigrees have not always been tracked.
If the training plans work as I expect, I might consider breeding another litter. IT WILL NOT BE WITH ROSE THOUGH. At that point, it will only be with a registered female. That said, here is what I ran into before I got Rose in looking for a GSD. If anyone can recommend a line that produces these types of GSDs, please email it to me.
1. Dog must have a natural (not trained) calm unexcitable demenor. This is actually hard to find than you would imagine.
2. Dog must have a natural inteligence. Most any dog can be taught "tricks." It almost appears that Rose can reason simple things out. Remember, there is a difference between teaching a dog to open a gate by pushing a latch up and a dog that watches humans push up the latch and decides to do it themselves one day. (no incentive on the other side, dog did it just to do it and then sat down on the other side of the gate).
3. Dog must show no aggressive tendies. No growlling / barking in a strange situation. That is not to say that the dog will not be leary in a strange situation. The "protection" I get from Rose is more visual than anything. The minimal protection work we have done with her, she just simply puts herself between me and the threat and might put her paw on the aggressor. She makes no sound. This part she does natually.
4. Dog must be able to handle any situtation with confidence and head held high. If there is any question about how the dog will react in any situation, that dog will not work as a service dog.
A service dog must be able to go around all other animals with no effect.
A service dog must be able to handle any type of contact, including a squealling child coming up and throwing their arms around the dog.
A service dog must be able to handle going anywhere new. Example: construction zone, airport, parade, Six Flags (not on the rides of course).
A service dog must not require any correction to handle above.
Side note: Both Rose's sire and dam were Dallas police dogs.
by Sunsilver on 23 April 2012 - 04:54
|Keith, I wasn't talking about dog from shelters, but imported dogs that are sometimes mixed breed (mal/shepherd). The breeders know the bloodlines really well, but don't bother with papers, even on some of their purebred stock. I've heard some of the Eastern bloc countries didn't bother overly much with papers on their police dogs.|
by magdalenasins on 23 April 2012 - 11:15
|Rose, you can have my husky lol. First day here from his last home he opened all the door in the house (except the front door) and is so chilled out and smart it's not even funny. I was thinking of training him to be a therapy dog as he is such a happy and happy looking dog.|
by e c street on 23 April 2012 - 18:47
|Why do I want to request for the puppies to be fixed - As Rose is not registered, I do not want any buyers to purchase with the intent to do BYB.|
I feel like your breeding of your bitch is the epitomy of what you say you don't want others to do. There are others who probably feel the same way. Why don't you rethink this and see if this is really what you want to do. ecs
by fawndallas on 24 April 2012 - 18:51
|"Why do I want to request for the puppies to be fixed - As Rose is not registered, I do not want any buyers to purchase with the intent to do BYB.|
I feel like your breeding of your bitch is the epitomy of what you say you don't want others to do. There are others who probably feel the same way. Why don't you rethink this and see if this is really what you want to do. ecs "
Very few back yard breeders will take the time to do the homework on the potential stud and the health check for the female. Any puppies sold from my litter will be sold as house pets, nothing more.
This may all be a mute point, as there are only 2 females. The one that I have someone very interested in will have her fixed and the other will either stay with me or will be given to my dad as a service dog. Either way, this one will be fixed also.
by Mel62368 on 24 April 2012 - 19:58
|"Very few back yard breeders will take the time to do the homework on the potential stud and the health check for the female. Any puppies sold from my litter will be sold as house pets, nothing more."|
Just curious why "Health checks" for the female? No hip/elbow certs on the Male? Also you only intended to ask the buyers of the females to spay? The buyers of the Male may do what they wish? Also just my opionon no one should be breeding for house pets, nothing more..
by fawndallas on 24 April 2012 - 21:05
|I did not breed for house pets only. Please review my other comments. The puppies sold will only be the ones that do not make the cut for service dog training. |
Based on the temperment of both Rose and her stud (very mild in temperment), I do not expect any of the puppies to have a high enough prey or protection drive to qualify for that work. If a puppy does seem to have this type of temperment, I will look to engage someone from a police force to evaluate for use.
As for show dogs, since Rose is not registered and thus the puppies cannot be registered, I do not think they can be showed. I think part of "showing" requirements is that the dog is registered. I am not sure on this; there are others more experience in the show area that can qualify for this.
Ideally, I am hoping that all of the puppies will make the service dog grade. Reality tells me that I will be very lucky if 4 make the grade. Based on the breeding, I am hoping from that direction, I have added more odds to getting more dogs that will have the service dog temperment (as both Rose and the stud have).
The one female that I am considering selling is so far too hyper and excited for a service dog. In all fairness though, the pups are only 8 days old. I will not be able to start a better evaluation until 4 wks or more.
by ggturner on 24 April 2012 - 21:53
|I also wonder if the stud had health checks? Also, was the hip and elbow check on Rose only a vet's opinion or OFA? |
Good luck with the litter. Service dogs are amazing so I hope some of the puppies can be used for this purpose.
by fawndallas on 24 April 2012 - 21:57
|Yes, I made sure the stud had the same health checks and they were verified by my vet.|
My vet did Xrays of the hips and elbows for the verification.
by ggturner on 24 April 2012 - 22:05
|So no OFA? Not all vets are good at reading x-rays for hips and elbows (most vets don't have the expertise). My vet x-rayed one of my female gsds and said her hips looked "just fine." I sent them to OFA and found out she has HD. She is spayed. My male gsd had his hips x-rayed and the vet said they were "perfect" and they were the best hips they had ever seen in all the years they've practiced. OFA certified them as "good."|
by fawndallas on 24 April 2012 - 22:33
|So what my vet did was not OFC? What he did was not cheap. Did I waste my money?|
by vomtreuenhaus on 24 April 2012 - 22:43
|YES you wasted your money. Your vets opinion means NOTHING. You actually need to send the Xrays into the OFA to have them graded.|
by ggturner on 24 April 2012 - 22:52
|You have to get your vet to x-ray your dog and provide the form which you send to OFA. You then send the x-rays, the form, and a fee to the OFA to have your dog's hips/elbows evaluated by radiologists (http://www.offa.org/). In the U.S., you have no way of knowing that a dog's hips/elbows are good enough for breeding purposes until you have OFA results (or Penn hip results: http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Default.aspx?alias=research.vet.upenn.edu/pennhip).|
by Bhaugh on 25 April 2012 - 02:39
|After reading your requirements and although most of what you ask is a very well trained, well bred dog, asking a german shepherd to not show any "aggression" (or protective nature) ....my dear this just may not be the breed for the work you want. You are trying to breed out some of the very traits the breed is known for. It's kinda like trying to reinvent the wheel. I have had a few other herding breeds and they ALL show some aggression or protection. That is what they are and what they are bred to do. Why not consider a retrieving breed such as a lab or golden. I have a golden and he is fantastic. Soft mouth and super intelligent.|
I will always be a true shepherd person but if I wanted a dog with the requirements you are looking for, I would choose something else.
by Hundmutter on 25 April 2012 - 07:50
|What Bhaugh said is basically why Guide Dogs for the Blind in UK now use 3/4 Labrador or Lab x|
Golden Retriever stock for their dogs, and only a 1/4 or less GSDs despite the original Seeing Eye
dogs being Shepherds. There is another newish group in UK working with only GSDs for this purpose; but in the numbers game they are tiny. Some people still prefer or can walk better with a
GSD; other kinds of Assistance Dogs (Hearing Dogs etc) are generally mixed-breeds often from