German Shepherd Dog > Ok to ask Buyers to Neuter/Spay puppy? (73 replies)
by magdalenasins on 18 April 2012 - 10:32
|That makes sense and I agree, my (albeit WL) GSD was a fantastic seizure alert dog. Don't think a lot of people were judging initially just confused. Good luck with training them. :)|
by Sunsilver on 18 April 2012 - 11:51
KNPV stands for Royal Dutch Police Dog http://user.mc.net/~jimengel/JimRead/KNPV.htm
by kitkat3478 on 18 April 2012 - 12:15
|Good luck with your plans for your litter and also your venture into training service dogs. Could you please do a little more research tho on your early spay/neuter thoughts.Yes it is good to fix them, but just consider the effects of doing so too early on the dogs overall health for the rest of their lives.|
by Conspicuous on 18 April 2012 - 13:21
|I don't think she meant spay/neuter immediately, but that it had to be done, say in their first year or something? Unless I read it wrong.|
I don't think non-breeding contracts are that uncommon.
Good luck with your litter
by EuroShepherd on 18 April 2012 - 20:59
Sunsilver, is there a way I can message you privately? I don't see it on your profile.
by GSD Admin on 18 April 2012 - 22:37
|This should work. Send personal message to Sunsilver|
by Ctidmore on 19 April 2012 - 11:53
|I don't know how large of litter this is, but it sounds like 5 of them will be going to either family or donated to a service organization, which would NOT be planning on breeding already. You can ASK people to do anything, doesn't mean they will comply.|
I personally don't know of anyone that has taken someone to court or been taken to court if someone didn't comply with their contract. I personally have felt that contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on, it just makes the buyer feel warm and cozy. IMO
I hope EACH puppy turns out to be exactly what you had hoped and planned.
by Blitzen on 19 April 2012 - 14:47
|IMO it's fine to request that buyers neuter pet puppies. Helping to pay for the surgery is a good incentive. The age is the bone of contension and I can only speak to my own personal experiences. I prefer spaying a female before her first season to prevent breast cancer. After her first heat that benefits wanes with every season until it is nil. Intact females are prone to developing uterus infections that are life-threatening and most pet owners do not want to go through having a female drip blood all over their house twice a year or having the neighbors males trying to get to their females.|
I never asked most buyers to neuter males unless there appeared to be a good reason to do so - like humping the kids. If the concern is that the dog in not used for breeding, then a tubal ligation or vasectomy could be a good alternative to neutering. However, females with tubal ligations will still have seasons and accept males and there is no benefit as far as prevent breast cancer goes.
Frankly, I have seen many females neutered young including hundred of puppies that resulted from test matings. These dogs were followed for their entire lifetimes and very few suffered from any health issues that could have been attributed to early neutering other than they may have grown taller with less substance than if they were not neutered. Males won't develop a masculine head if neutered before they are sexually mature.
Not meaning to start another of those proper neutering age arguments. Just telling you what has worked for me and other breeders I know well. Females have been neutered before their first season for years with no longterm health issues. Of course some have developed bone cancer, etc, but there is no way to know that they wouldn't have anyway and most studies I've read have been done on breeds that may be genetically predisposed to bone cancer - labs, goldens, Rottie, IWH's etc.. IMO we need to know a lot more before I will forego the recognized benefit of preventing breast cancer in order to keep a pet female intact. I've had 2 females die from breast cancer, had 2 emergency surgeries on older females with pyometra, have seen more than a few females die while undergoing surgery for pyo. I've never owned a female that died from any longterm effects of being neutered young.
by fawndallas on 19 April 2012 - 21:48
|Thank you all. It has been a busy few days. One of the puppies started kind of wiggling its tail today while eating. Soo cute.|
One is still loosing a little weight. I gave it some one on one time with mom this morning. He looked to have more energy and assertivness this afternoon.
Health Screening I had done:
Rose was screened for hip dysplesa (sp) both in hips and elbows. Those passed as "good." I had 3 vets tell me though that this is no guarantee she will not get it later in life.
She also had full blood work done to test for any genetic issues like locemia (sp) and such.
Rose also had blood work done every 6 months to make sure she stayed in health and nothing showed up.
I do understand that there is at best a 10 to 1 chance of a dog actually working out as a service dog. I am hoping at least one of these pups will pass all the tests. I have done my best to encourage that based on the breeding. Now it is up to me as the breed to socialize and train them to give them all a better chance for this.
As for alert, I do not know if any will work out for that. Rose is not an alert dog. I have trained her to help me as I need it for my MS. For example:
She knows to help me up when I fall. If she cannot, she goes and gets my husband.
She opens and closes doors for me.
She brings me my phone if it is ringing and I cannot get to it.
by Hundmutter on 20 April 2012 - 20:33
Thank you for the translation and information, and the link. Dutch working scene is a complete blank to me, I hope to learn more now that I'm aware of that.
by Emoore on 21 April 2012 - 01:05
|Seems kinda hypocritical. "I can breed *my* unregistered dog and produce unregistered puppies but I don't want *you* to do the same so I'll need you to spay your puppy." What's the difference between them and you?|
by Ctidmore on 21 April 2012 - 14:17
by Smiley on 21 April 2012 - 16:21
|I don't think it is an interesting point.|
If you read through the whole thread you will see that the OP is someone who has trained and plans on continuing to train service dogs. The individual is breeding one litter to accomplish this purpose and is being responsible about the placements of puppies not selected for service dog program.
To me, apples and oranges between an experienced trainer who is thoughtfully breeding a litter for a specific purpose to train and place in service homes versus some uneducated breeder breeding a thoughtless litter for money. Also, if you know anything about service dogs than you would know pedigree is the last thing they look for!
by Bhaugh on 21 April 2012 - 18:09
|Unfortunately Sara I do not agree with you. The poster states (if I remember right) that she has trained HER OWN dog to be a service dog. The litter will be a tester of sorts for ongoing service work. Any breeder will tell you that even with the best possible dogs chosen through pedigree's and actual work ability, not all pups will work or have the necessary abilities to make a good service dog.|
Pedigees SHOULD play a roll in selection. Any trainer who breeds and doesn't know what they are breeding (through pedigrees) is guessing and why spend all the money to raise a litter for a guess.
by Emoore on 21 April 2012 - 18:19
|If you know anything about genetics you know that phenotype does not necessarily equal genotype. Choosing a service dog has nothing to do with pedigree, true; but choosing a BREEDING dog (yes even just one litter) has just as much to do with the dog's genetics as it has to do with the expressed phenotype. Yes, even in service dogs. Just because a dog is skilled at a job doesn't mean the offspring will be. You can't have it both ways. Either your dog's genetics are worthy of being passed on, or they are not. Does the OP believe the dog's genes will produce excellent service dogs or not? If not, the dog should not have been bred. If so, why spay/neuter the offspring when the genes might provide much-needed service dogs?|
by Smiley on 21 April 2012 - 23:22
|We will have to agree to disagree on this one.... |
by Sunsilver on 22 April 2012 - 05:25
|Let's try this again, Emoore. How many people are going to want these puppies as potential service dogs?|
The OP realizes that the pups MAY fall into the hands of a BYB or, even worse, a puppy mill. You can do all the homework you want on a potential buyer, and still be fooled.
I see nothing wrong with requiring a non-breeding contract. Breeders of registered GSDs do it all the time. And I think it's the ethical thing to do, unless he knows the buyer very well.
by dogshome9 on 22 April 2012 - 06:46
Forgive me please if I have missed it BUT how many puppies from the litter is OP going to keep for herself to train and prove that the bitch was worth mating?
She is after all wanting to prove that 1) the bitch has certain abilities that are breed worthy. 2) that she is a good dog trainer.
Once again forgive me if I have missed it.
by Smiley on 22 April 2012 - 15:04
|Dogshome, OP stated earlier in thread keeping 1 or 3 dogs to train for personal/family use as service dogs; 1 or 2 dogs to be trained for donation to service dog organization; and rest placed in responsible pet homes. AS OP said, not all puppies will test out as appropriate evn with the most thoughtfully planned litter.|
I am not advocating breeding unregistered dogs. In fact, up to a year ago, I may have been horrified at what the OP wrote. But, that was before I met three people with service dogs. My eyes were truly opened and the OP is right when stated these well trained dogs are truly "gifts" in every sense of the word.
I did talk to the people with these dogs and 1 was registered and two were not registered and one was a mixed breed. 2 were german shepherds. One had no history and the other dog is owned by a member of my GSDCA local club. This dog was bred from ASL by an ASL breeder. The member has been partners in this particular breeding program for a long time. She had hands on knowledge of the dogs involved. I don't know how many puppies she went through before she found an appropriate puppy to do the work. They don't breed for service dogs but show dogs. I can find out more if there is real interest in how these service dogs comes to be...
I looked into some service dog breeding programs and it seems at the beginning they went for health and temperament..period. How esle would you tell if a dog is worthy to be bred for service dogs. Most of our dogs do not have specific pedigrees that say this dog can answer phones; can discrminate between sounds to help owner; can get their medicine if it falls, can ignore all distractions and attend their owners needs in public setting, etc. How would you be able to tell all that from a breed survey report or any kind of competition titles?
I think the fact the OP has ALREADY trained a service dog and is breeding one litter to train dogs for others is commendable. Obviously, she did health checks as well. I hope that a female is suitable to be kept as breeding stock from this litter and might be able to continue a service dog breeding program for the OP.
It is a shame that the GSD is no longer the breed of choice for service dog organizations. There ARE dogs out there that can do it.
Maybe if someone could provide the OP with detaisl for Fidelco breeding program she can touch base with them...I admit to ignorance in this area.
by Emoore on 22 April 2012 - 16:19
|"I looked into some service dog breeding programs and it seems at the beginning they went for health and temperament..period. How esle would you tell if a dog is worthy to be bred for service dogs. "|
Well, because what you see expressed in any given dog is less than half the dog's actual genetic makeup. About half of a dog's genes are not expressed, and the genes that are not expressed can and will be passed on to the offspring. (I'm allowing for genes expressing incompletely or in combination, which is why I said "about half.) In addition training makes up a percentage of what you will see in a given dog's behavior. Add that to the fact that a pup gets 50% of its genes from the other parent, and any given organism will actually express 25% or less of what you see in a single parent. It's not the registration status, it's the ability to study the pedigree and see what is in the genes that we are not seeing in the dog in question. Breeding a dog just because you like what you see in that dog is breeding blind without the ability to study the other dogs in the pedigree.