German Shepherd Dog > Best breeding dogs don't win big events (102 replies)
by Ibrahim on 18 April 2012 - 18:03
|I know and understand that you all are either experts on the breed, breeders or trainers, I myself I am neither of the above so I will speak as a simple GSD owner and what I will say should be understood in this sense, why I am saying this is because when and if I breed I may not be in a position to do what I will just say, so I speak as an owner and enthusiast.|
I think breed authorities in order to keep the breed in good status and improve it they put certain conditions for breeding a dog, I here take the SV as an example. To breed a dog it needs to pass HD/ED test, title and koerung. Therefore a breeder should at least meet those basic conditions to breed GSDs. Any justification for not titling does not make you right, rules are made for the whole breed, SV can not make specific rules for each breeder's individual case, it makes general rules for all to maintain the well being of present and future GSD. If I breed and I have no branch for SV or have no training clubs etc in my own country I may find other means to make sure my dogs qualify for breeding, I may make my own rules, that's ok but I should not justify what I'm personally doing by attacking the rule of titling to justify and beautify my practices.
To take care of the total breed terms for breeding were put and applied, saying that some buy titles is true but it does not make titling wrong. International competitors might not be the best producers, that is correct, but it does not make competition wrong. There is no thump rule that the highest marks winner is the best producer and there is no thump rule that the highest marks winner is the worst producer either, a good dog is a good dog irregardless of titles, but titles give indication and necessary proof.
Dogs that work for police etc give you indication for their good quality, that is good for individual breeding but for all breeders everywhere titles serve as the main general indicator.
I can't see why this simple thing is debatable when all say they want the good for the breed.
by joanro on 18 April 2012 - 18:32
|Criteria for evaluating quality in a dog is a personal decision. If one lives in Germany or has GSLs, then to get show ratings with SV they must follow SV rules. But, if one chooses not to be dictated to by SV, then that should be their prerogative. The SV, for example has an unrealistic herding test for dog owners living in south eastern US to abide by. So, if one wants to achieve a herding title in that part of the world, the SV is not of any importance. Nor does the SV matter when PP training happens to be a dog owner/breeder goal. If schH is the primary title being debated, many people have seen how false the training, tracking for example, can be in the schH discipline. If a person is using titles as a dog's resume' , then a write up of a dog's accomplishments should also serve as a resume', which could include accomplishments in organizations that happen not to be endorsed by SV.|
by Ibrahim on 18 April 2012 - 18:44
|Do you mean that in Czech, Belgium, Britain, the US or Canada you don't have to title and koerung in order to breed a GSD?|
by Ibrahim on 18 April 2012 - 18:45
|Criteria for evaluating quality in a dog is a personal decision|
This is a call for a disaster in the breed
by brynjulf on 18 April 2012 - 18:50
|In Canada and the US all you have to do is toss two German Shepherds together. ( well DNA is required on the stud if he sires more than a few litters) Easy peasy to fake paperwork etc. SV may not be perfect but I rather like the breeding requirements :)|
by joanro on 18 April 2012 - 18:53
|I think that breeders of experience and caliber such as Duke might take exception to "...disaster for the breed". To me, disaster would be one organization having complete control and say so regarding all breeding.|
by Ibrahim on 18 April 2012 - 18:55
If that is so, I wonder why Americans criticize other American breeders for not titling their dogs
by joanro on 18 April 2012 - 18:55
|That's what I said, personal preference.|
by Gustav on 18 April 2012 - 19:25
|I guess it depends on whether the Dog/Breed or the Organization is more important. The assumption implied is that though the Breed organizations are not perfect, they are better than nothing in place. I think that premise has too be looked at carefully. I mean in the end you have to evaluate the consistent final product and see how much it agrees with the intent for the breed. The organizations have some rules and regulations that have helped the breed, but they have allowed other practices that certainly have been harmful also. You can't just look at the good of an organization without eveluating the negative, weighing one against the other and then determing the good/bad of the organization. Some organizations become counterproductive to their original goal over time....in all walks of life. They have a need for modification. In the end the welfare and vitality of the breed will reflect the good of the breed organizations (or the bad) or need for change....this I submit evryone must do for themself. I don't believe you can legislate quality....that's just me. I believe there are quality breeders in each camp, and also not so quality breeders in each....either by omission or comission. Just some thoughts.....|
by Abby Normal on 18 April 2012 - 19:27
|Ibrahim, you always have a beautiful way of putting things down simply and with such clarity. I too speak only as a GSD owner and enthusiast.|
In the UK there are no restrictions for GSD breeding/titling either. There are health recommendations but not enforceable and no recommendations for titling/working ability.
IMO the reason that some people in the US, UK and elsewhere discuss (and argue about) health tests, working ability and titling as per the SV is because it is a method that is admired and acknowledged as being superior and they wish to uphold this standard and want others in the breed to do the same, for the sake of preserving breed qualities and health. It isn't something that anyone in these countries is required to do.
by Ibrahim on 18 April 2012 - 19:42
|Gustav, I heartily agree, a breeder abides by the minimum requirements of the breed organization he's a member in, then it is his choice and preference to take his/her dogs to higher placements, titles, competitions etc. It is the breeder's decision to choose the best available/possible studs for their bitches that meet the basic requirements as a minimum, whether that stud is a high marks winner or just a good local proven producer, what a breeder produces reflects his/her goals/efforts/knowledge and smart choices in addition to his personal ambition.|
What makes a great producer on the level of the total breed?
Good genetics, good training, good achievements on the highest levels worldwide, no quality GSd working at a police dept. in a certain village or city will ever be a great producer, simply because few breeders will take notice of him and therefore his total effect on the whole breed is a minimum.
Titling in itself is not a bad thing, personal violations is.
by Ibrahim on 18 April 2012 - 19:50
Thanks for the explanation, it would be a good thing if all organizations rise to same level of terms and rules but as Gustav said
I believe there are quality breeders in each camp, and also not so quality breeders in each....either by omission or comission.
If a breeder wants to he/she can adopt higher standards for his/her kennel and not limit his/her dogs to the minimum requirements.
by joanro on 18 April 2012 - 20:36
|With only one organization in control of anything, too much opportunity for skewed rules and corruption exists.|
by brynjulf on 18 April 2012 - 20:46
Abby says it best! In countries where there is no system in place you really wish there were more controls. Purchasing a dog in Canada, you honestly have no guarantee that the animal purchased is even purebred.
Abby said IMO the reason that some people in the US, UK and elsewhere discuss (and argue about) health tests, working ability and titling as per the SV is because it is a method that is admired and acknowledged as being superior and they wish to uphold this standard and want others in the breed to do the same, for the sake of preserving breed qualities and health. It isn't something that anyone in these countries is required to do.
And I agree 100%. When a breeder in these countries actually titles and health tests it is a safety net :) They are not required to title so you KNOW they care about the welfare of the breed. Here any joe blow and can stick two dogs together and tell you they are out of some super amazing dog. If the dog has been through the SV hoops as a purchaser you feel much safer.
by Ramage on 19 April 2012 - 01:11
|I honestly have to agree with Hired Hand. I would pick a herding dog over most Schutzhund dogs I have seen. JMHO|
One thing I see in many Schutzhund dogs is lack of stability. They can still get by and get titled, though, depending on the trainer and the judge. However, you can't have an excellent herding dog that isn't stable. They won't be able to work the livestock properly. Typically, the flaws come out when it comes down to herding. Again, JMHO. I know a lot of people disagree with my view point, just had a fight on Facebook about it, but so be it. We all have our preferences and luckily there are still people out there that see the value in good herding dogs.
by Nadeem6 on 19 April 2012 - 01:17
|Titles and rules are fine but in the end it is the individuals choice of what to do. I have seen dogs being prepared for titles that are far from breedworthy. They are being titled for sport and the fun of working towards a goal. Which is wonderful but having said this i can very easily see how one could title a not so great dog to a IPO3 and want to breed. Good training can mask so much, you can spend months covering up nerve for a trial by repetition. |
Also Schutzhund (or whatever the new name is now) is great but it doesn't show everything. I know of a dog who looks great on the field but i then see the dog in agility class and she is full of nerves. She will go hide under a table if the opportunity presents itself and slinks around the course. But on the field she looks confident and shows nice aggression. I think you need more than just one avenue to evaluate a dog for "bettering" the breed.
Aside from this is the money issue. If you spend a few thousand on an import for breeding and they don't meet standards, (or you just take it on faith that it's a great dog 'cause of the money spent) some people still want to make that money back and will still breed it. Whenever i see an ad full of this dog is from this dog and that dog and that dog, i wonder if the dog itself is worth anything since only the ancestors accomplishments are stated.
by Chaz Reinhold on 19 April 2012 - 01:57
|Nadeem, if you breed to a dog solely by watching a trial, your odds just got shittier. SchH is a small world. Schutzhund handlers talk more shit than a proctologist. You know what dogs in your area are worth looking at and if you do see a dog that catches your eye, you check it out further. I can name many, many dogs in SchH that could do anything. Believe it or not, but puppies are a crap shoot. I invented that saying. We all know people get shatter with a dud, but some people get lucky and end up with a super dog. It's real easy to say that a sport isn't great. I suck at bowling and so does most of the world. Does that mean that the individuals that compete at high levels suck as well? And I'm also sure there is some yahoo with an alley in his basement that claims he is awesome, bowls a 300 everytime, never competes and nobody has ever seen him bowl. You gotta have a gauge.|
by ejax on 19 April 2012 - 02:11
|@Jenni, Javir has been bred quite a few times I know. What I don't know is the quality of females he was bred to. I do know that he had quite a few young offspring in the BSP last year. I can remember at least 3 or 4 at the highest level of the sport in Germany. That's not too bad since most of his offspring are under 4 years of age. I would give it some time before I would fairly evaluate him as a producer. A friend of mine has a young SCH I male from him that's very nice. Just saying.|
by Jenni78 on 19 April 2012 - 02:21
|Nadeem is hardly just watching a single trial and deciding to breed and I think he knows all about the shit talked on and off the field. He actually did exactly what you said as far as checking out a dog. I think what he is saying is being misconstrued. He has gone from new handler to certified helper in a year and a half - he's hardly saying SchH is a terrible sport. I agree with him wholeheartedly that it sure can cover a LOT of temperament flaws and those people sometimes spend so much money and work so hard that they want to breed just BECAUSE of that instead of just being proud of what they did and realizing that they shouldn't, because all that money and work doesn't change the dog's genetic makeup and its potential contribution to the breed, whether positive or negative.|
Chaz, I am a badass bowler. I will play you for $1 per pin. ;-) I know, I know...such a whitetrash sport. LOL
by Chaz Reinhold on 19 April 2012 - 02:24
|When I said, "you", I didn't mean nadeem.|