German Shepherd Dog > Best breeding dogs don't win big events (102 replies)
by duke1965 on 15 April 2012 - 18:32
|not sure what your asking joan but if you breed 250 females to the flavour of the day male , the few ones producing good offspring with flavour of the day male probably will also produce good with unknown above mediocre quality male|
by GSDPACK on 15 April 2012 - 18:53
|Jenni, there is one coming up in the next year or so... a Javir's son. Takes two to tango and again the female is EXTREMELY important.|
by mfh27 on 15 April 2012 - 19:01
|Duke, what is your definition of a flavor-of-the-week dog? It seems to be used in a derogatory fashion to describe a popular stud.|
by joanro on 15 April 2012 - 19:12
|That's basically what I was getting at, Duke. Seems that if popularity inspires owners to use a stud, then there will be a huge disparity in quality of females. So the offspring would reflect the quality and lack of quality in the females used.|
by duke1965 on 15 April 2012 - 19:27
|mfh in breeding there is no such thing as one stud that is the best mach for 500 females , every female has her own points to improve , so every combination we breed has to be tailormade.|
instead of this most people go to the stud that will sell the pups best and that is what I refer to as flavour of the week and without saying names we all know who these dogs are
now many people have a so so bitch and go to a flavour of the week stud , instead of this they should go to a male that can bring the qualities that the female is not so good at and 99 out of 100 times this will not be the famous winner or hype dog
now if this hype dog breeds somewhere between 250 and 500 females in his life there definately will be some good offspring , but that will be because of the numbers of offspring and not because his strength in breeding
by Jenni78 on 15 April 2012 - 19:43
|Yeah, Martina, I believe that's pretty much what I just said.|
by Chaz Reinhold on 15 April 2012 - 19:52
|I have to agree with Jenni on Javir. I see more 8 month to a year Pups for resale from Javir than any other.|
by duke1965 on 15 April 2012 - 20:11
|chaz , do you think it is to blame on javir or to his fame and all the crappy bitches running to him|
by Rik on 15 April 2012 - 20:31
|duke said "instead of this most people go to the stud that will sell the pups best and that is what I refer to as flavour of the week and without saying names we all know who these dogs are|
now many people have a so so bitch and go to a flavour of the week stud"
this is said from a breeder with experience.
As far as young dogs available from a dog like Javir, I would think there would be many more available from a dog who gets many breedings, from his accomplishments, more so than a dog from a breeder in some far off place from high level competitions who offers dogs only noted inside their own fenced backyard.
by Ibrahim on 15 April 2012 - 20:38
|I remember at school days we used to say if I studied as much the other student did I would have got higher marks than him/her.|
1. That might be true and might be wrong, there isn't anything to prove the claim.
2. What matters is that student got the highest mark because he studied and prepared him/herself.
3. Some people would never get high marks/accomplishments because they can not commit themselves to what it takes to do that.
A good dog is a good dog whether high titled or not but how can you tell if there were no testings done to tell the difference between the various dogs?
The best producer might not be the one who got the highest marks, also he might be.
by duke1965 on 15 April 2012 - 20:39
|not sure what you mean here rik , but fact is that many pups are sold and bought over the name and fame of the father and will never live up to the expectations .|
by duke1965 on 15 April 2012 - 20:42
|ibrahim , competitions are won by the best trained dog period. this has nothing to do with breedingquality.|
by Jenni78 on 15 April 2012 - 20:43
|I'm not saying anything against Javir, personally, just to be clear. He just came to mind as an example because everyone was clamoring to get a Javir pup, and now they seem to be a dime a dozen and I haven't heard anything remarkable about the ones being sold. I almost bought a daughter of his a while back- not because of her sire, but because of the way she was described. I'm not saying he can't and hasn't produced nice pups- I'm just saying that being a top winner may not make him a top breeding dog. The one I almost bought, I didn't know immediately that she was a Javir daughter. My only point was that here's a big name flavor of the week type dog who seems to have kind of faded away and not many notable progeny are on the horizon, so far as I can tell. I see MANY Javir pups for sale between 7mos-2yrs old at very reasonable prices. |
My only "experience" with any Javir progeny is secondhand (one of my pups trains w/a Javir pup) so this is not gospel truth; this is just my perception and an example I used. Javir may be a fantastic dog who has simply been bred to weak/average females. MANY breeders take a subpar female and breed her to any big name they can just to sell pups on the sire's name alone. I have had people suggest I take Capri to Mr. Famous so-and-so, but that's not really my goal, to breed to the big name dogs. I want to breed to the dog who will complement her the best and I don't care where I find that dog or how famous he is, or isn't.
Anyway, I do understand what Nadeem's TD is saying, but that may be because I know him and can kind of read between the lines on some of it. If I had no idea who he was or what his experience has been, I think that statement could be interpreted very differently (as it has been.)
by Ibrahim on 15 April 2012 - 20:52
Your dog has a SCHH title, mine does not. Can I claim my dog is better than yours when there is nothing to prove that?
When it comes to breeding, the best titled dog might and might not be the best producer.
No unknown dog will become a good producer and contribute to the breed if people won't hear of him through his achievements and bring their bitches to him.
by joanro on 15 April 2012 - 21:00
|Ibrahim, contributing to the breed does not necessarily mean saturating the gene pool with a certain famous dog. That can have the opposite impact on the breed... Contribution to the breed in a positive way can be very subtle.|
by Rik on 15 April 2012 - 22:02
|duke, what I am saying is that people who actually have recognized accomplishments with their dogs (in whatever venue they choose), understand what you said. People who do nothing, in time or resources invested, have no idea.|
Most people breed to the "flavor" dog because (1)it has achieved the goals they seek or because (2) the pups sell well and they have no goals other than selling pups. I do think the biggest reason is #2.
Dogs become famous for a reason, and no matter the person/trainer/handler/breeder behind the dog, there has to be something there (in the dog) to begin with.
That folks breed their "so-so" female to a highly accomplished dog expecting the same greatness is a whole other story.
by GSDPACK on 16 April 2012 - 00:48
|Jenni nobody is saying you are crap talking Javir.. I only say..one male looks great and he has a bright future if he pulls through. I know of one dog.. for now.|
by Jenni78 on 16 April 2012 - 01:48
|I know; I just didn't want anyone to think I had some personal knowledge of him or his pups and had reason to not be impressed. Lots of people read these threads and have no background to go with them and take things too seriously or out of context.|
by Chaz Reinhold on 16 April 2012 - 03:21
|Duke, I'm sure that is a factor. I just see so many ads for dogs around a year, it makes you wonder.|
by duke1965 on 16 April 2012 - 06:31
|Ibrahim , you have to look at the dogs and not at there scorebooks when you make breedingchoices , and im sure that some of my untitled breedingdogs are better dogs and producers than many titled dogs out there, but not on paper, but genetics dont listen to what a judge wrote on a piece of paper|
very important is however to recognize that you cannot hold every famous male responsable for the quality of the puppies of every crappy bitch bred to him