German Shepherd Dog > linebreeding question (14 replies)
by gosseygsd on 14 April 2012 - 19:39
|I have a puppy reserved from a breeder and have a question re linebreeding.|
In the pups pedigree the Father is also the grandfather on the Dams side...
Is this a 2-2 linebreeding? if not what is it referred to? Its my first time seeing this and although Im told by the breeder its not uncommon given the fine traints of the Father - I am wondering if thats indeed accurate?
by Slamdunc on 14 April 2012 - 19:44
|So, the father is bred to his daughter? I am getting this right? Can you post a pedigree or a link to the pedigree?|
by trixx on 14 April 2012 - 19:52
|if i was you i would not even consider this breeding, this is not aloud, its a 1-2 linebreeding if i am reading this right, you would count the dad as a 1 and the grandfather of the pups would be a 2 and from what you are saying this female was bred to her dad , which is really wrong and you are going to see all the bad genes come out, that just crazy. can i see this pedigree?|
by Ibrahim on 14 April 2012 - 19:57
|(father/mother) is generation number 1, grandparents are generation 2.|
Therefore this breeding is 1-2, in Germany this type of inbreeding is not allowed. In Europe and in America there are so many good studs available to choose from, so there is no logic in saying it was done for the good traits . If the breeder is in a country where there is big shortage of available studs then maybe the breeder has a point. All that said a breeder who is ready to take this chance must cull the puppies who might show serious faults due to this tight inbreeding, hopefully you are not being the " cull destination".
by gosseygsd on 14 April 2012 - 20:06
Sorry I wasnt as clear as I should have been.. the father of the pup is also the GREAT grandfather of the pup (on the mothers side) so it would be a 1-3 linebreeding? Im located in Canada and will be training him in Schutzhund as well so I need to make sure he is able to compete.
by Ibrahim on 14 April 2012 - 20:07
|Good evening Slamdunc, It's a pleasure to see you posting, please make it more frequent, we could benefit from you sharing your knowledge with us.|
by Slamdunc on 14 April 2012 - 20:22
Thanks for the nice comments. You are one of my favorite people on this forum. I am out of the "penalty box" for a little while it seems. I will do more reading or surfing the threads than posting on them. I may participate in threads that you are active in as they are always worthwhile. I think a low profile may be the best thing for me.
Who is the sire of the litter? What great qualities does he have to be line bred on in that fashion? I would have to research the dogs, but there are no guarantees with a puppy that you can compete in SchH or the puppy will even work. Puppies are a gamble even from the best working line litters. All you can do is hedge your bets. That male would have to be something really outstanding from a world class breeder for me to even consider a breeding like that.
by gosseygsd on 14 April 2012 - 20:38
|No the breeder isnt world class - certainly not widely known for working dogs though some have SCH titles|
I am more questioning the breeding from the standpoint of temperment and health. I know Its a crapshoot when it comes to if a pup will work or not alot of the time. ( my 5th GSD but only the 2nd I will have done any Schutzhund with)
I am simply looking for a dog with drive that is solid and confident. He will be a family dog first and foremost. Some line Breeding is very common in Canada but havent seen 1-3 done. Thought most of my Dogs have been rescued Its my second GSD purchased from a breeder so I am quite a novice at this breeding research! :0)
I appreciate everyones information and advice !
by ggturner on 14 April 2012 - 21:16
|So glad slamdunc is back!|
Good luck with your search gossey. Sunsilver lives in Canada. Maybe she can suggest a good breeder.
by Bundishep on 15 April 2012 - 00:50
|personaly I would not get closer than a 2-2 linebreding and the SV in germany i hear they accept a 2-3 for the closest,I dont think youll come out with dogs that have 5 legs but remember a close line breeding can bring both the best traits into the mix as long as the worse traits,i would examine closely the bad points,for instance bad hips,dog aggression, weak nerves, etc.I would not consider using such a pup in a future breeding program but if you only want him for Sch then it is prob a fair gamble, but once again looking closer at the bad points possibly being magnified.Their is no perfect dog all have flaws somewhere, just some have more flaws than others.|
by Slamdunc on 15 April 2012 - 02:08
No the breeder isnt world class - certainly not widely known for working dogs though some have SCH titles
If you want to do SchH then you might want to consider a breeder that is known for producing working line dogs. When only some dogs in a working line pedigree have working titles is a concern. I do SchH and raise my working dogs from pups. We both agree that puppies can be a crap shoot, but when you start with dogs in the pedigree that aren't titled you are already behind the 8 ball. Some on here will argue that titles aren't everything, and hips x rays don't matter and dogs don't have to be registered......Blah, blah, blah... A good, ethical working line breeder does these things and breeds to registered, titled, x rayed dogs. The ones who say it isn't important either lack the ability themselves to title or work their dogs; or have dogs that can't pass the various tests or health checks. There is absolutely no reason to breed unregistered, or dogs who are not x rayed.
SchH titles are not everything, but I would only deal with a breeder that works there dogs and competes with dogs from their own breeding. Because, I make a pretty serious commitment to training and working dogs in SchH, I expect the same from a working line breeder. I expect a working line breeder to have knowledge and experience in training, working and competing with their own dogs.
Pm me the pedigree and I will offer some insight if you want.
Where are you located in Canada? There are some excellent working line breeders up there.
ah blah blahaaaaaaa.......
by duke1965 on 15 April 2012 - 05:55
|funny thing , most of you that are so dead against inbreeding should do some research in the breed history and find out about some of the strong producing dogs that are responsible of the most strong lines in GSD history|
all the bullshit stories about getting diseases and so on , a dog is only capable of reproducing the flaws he geneticly carries , so if a dog carries these genetic problems , he will also give it in an outcross combination
to get rid of these genetic flaws the only way is inbreeding , or stick your head in the sand and outcross and hope it never shows up in your next combination , unfortunately it will.
gossey , I think slamdunc can push you in the right direction even though , his description of what is wanted is a bit different than mine
by Slamdunc on 15 April 2012 - 06:35
I think we are on the same wavelength. You would fit my description of a knowledgeable, educated breeder that works his dogs. You keep and work dogs from your breeding and train regularly. I have a lot of respect for you and your dogs.
by duke1965 on 15 April 2012 - 06:53
|I know Jim , but I do have several untitled dogs in my pedigrees|
by duke1965 on 15 April 2012 - 07:16
|for the anti inbreeding people|
3 times ex v riedstern who is 3 times ali vom granert
5 times greif v felsenstein who is linebred on Rolf osnabruckerland
giving a total of 9 times Ali vom Granert and 10 times Rolf in the pedigree pretty close of Robby Glockeneck