German Shepherd Dog > A1, A2, KKl1, KKl2 new rules (38 replies)
by Mackenzie on 07 April 2012 - 07:44
Whatever way that you look at it any mating using a combination of Fast Normal and Noch Zugelassen is breeding from dysplastic animals. The plus side of using these animals is that anyone with an acceptable grade for breeding can search for suitable males with a better grade himself. This alone will not guarantee the whole litter will have acceptable hips but some may, and these are the ones to breed on if their scores are better than the mothers. Obviously research has to be made on the males under consideration for a mating to ensure that only those with a proven history of producing above average are used.
One contributor here has made the point that “noch zugelassen has been around for a long time. Absolutely true. With all the hundreds and thousands of x-rays scored over the last 30+ years the breed should be at a point where this grade at least should be dispensed with, however, this grade is still seen too often. No real progress has been made in this time. The changes we now hear coming into effect will do nothing to improve the situation but will deprive breeders of a piece of vital information which is the exact status of the joints. Inevitably, the result will be a further deterioration in hips and elbow joints.
When I read this database I am disappointed by the absence of comment from so few people. Perhaps most people in the breed do not care, I don’t know. For those that cannot produce animals with acceptable hip and elbow scores, or, to the breed standard I think that they will be rubbing their hands with joy at the thought that it will be business as usual.
by Member on 07 April 2012 - 09:03
|It has been mentioned that so few people have come on to comment on this thread, I wonder if this is because they feel it would be a waste of time owing to the fact that regarding hip grades the SV have a system based on the grades which are published each quarter ie SV Genetics . The Grades are used to calculate the ZW . This system cannot work without separate grades to make up the numbers used. I cannot see any reason the SV would want to change this so it makes we wonder if this is something that is being made up out of nothing ??|
by Videx on 07 April 2012 - 10:50
|People should be aware that SV hips grade "normal" does NOT mean perfect hips. Here in the UK an assessment was done by Malcolm Willis on this matter, by examing SV grade hips under our own UK GSD League Hip Scheme (now the BVA/KC Scheme. His finding were published and proved that SV "a" stamp normal were generally NOT HD FREE, as in the UK 0:0=0 are VERY rare. Malcolm did publish the comparative UK scores of many SV hip grades, I am searching for his publication.|
In the meantime Malcolm was interviewed in 2001
Malcolm B. Willis, BSc, PhD:
"The basic tool kit for responsible breeders"
Dr. Willis is a visiting senior lecturer (semi-retired) in Animal Breeding and Genetics, Faculty of Agriculture and Biological Sciences, The University, Newcastle upon Tyne. He has been involved with German Shepherds since 1953 as a fancier and a breeder, and his wife Helen breeds Bernese Mtn. Dogs. He has judged German Shepherds since 1959 and Bernese Mtn. Dogs since1991. He serves as chairman of the German Shepherd Council and president of the Northern Bernese Mtn. Dog Club. He was made an Honorary Associate of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons in 1996 and analyzes hip score data for the British Veterinary Association.
Dr. Willis has written several articles recently for the AKC Gazette, and his books include:
The German Shepherd Dog, a genetic history; 1991 (HF & G Witherbys, London) ISBN 0-85493-207-0
The Bernese Mtn. Dog Today 1998 Ringpress, Lydney ISBN 1-86054-084-8
Practical Genetics for Dog Breeders.1992. HF & G Witherbys, London ISBN 0-85493-218-6
"Genetics of the Dog" (H.F.& G. Witherby Ltd,) ISBN 0-85493-176-7.
GDC: In the U.K. you publish hip and elbow evaluations openly, and provide that data on a sire's progeny so that breeders can make decisions based on the quality of his puppies. How does that work?
Willis: In the UK and in other European countries there are evaluation schemes, usually run by the kennel club, a veterinary group and/or breed clubs. In Britain the British Veterinary Association/Kennel Club hip scoring scheme allows any dog aged 12 months or more to have its hips "scored." Scoring involves eight radiographic features on a scale of zero to six and one on a scale of zero to five so that a dog can score from 0/0 (ideal) to 53/53 (worst). The worst breed average is the Cumber spaniel at about 42, and the best is the Siberian Husky at about six. A similar scheme exists for testing elbows (scale 0-3)
and also for testing for various eye diseases, but I am involved officially only in the hip scheme.
We publish sire figures, and, when a breed asks me, I publish records of what is happening in the breed. As soon as a dog through our scheme has ten progeny that we have scored, we publish data showing: (1) how many progeny he got; (2) how many mothers they were out of (the more the better); (3) what the best and worst progeny were; (4) the mean progeny score and how the scores were distributed in the progeny.
When I've got a dog I’m interested in, I would look at siblings, and I would get as many of them scored as possible. But once I start having enough progeny, I can throw away the siblings, I can throw away the dog's own score, and I can throw away the pedigree. If the progeny are poor, end of story. If they are good, carry on. I find a lot of good-hipped dogs who produce poor progeny, but I have never yet found a bad-hipped dog whose progeny record was wonderful. In other words if the dog is bad, stop using him now.
If we take a breed like Newfoundlands, for example, in the last 20 years they've made an improvement of about 0.73 points per year. Now that may not seem like a lot, but it means they've gone down from an average score of 37 to an average score of 22. When we publish sire data in that breed we have some who are producing mean hip scores for their progeny of around 8 compared with the breed average in the 20s. And we have also sires who are producing averages of around 43.
Q: So a sire who is producing poor quality hips in progeny will be known to everybody?
A: That's how it works. Peer pressure forces many breeders to hip score and take note of the results. And there is no question that once I publish those progeny data, the stud careers of some of these dogs are markedly affected. And there's not much a stud owner can do about it. Because even if he stops sending his own results in, he cannot stop people who've used his dog from sending in their results.
Now for example, one top winning German Shepherd has a hip score of 13 which is better than breed average. But the average in his progeny is 30-something. As soon as that became obvious, his stud career has gone down the tube. Now, he's still being used, because people say "I don't give a damn, such a lovely dog, I'm going to use him anyway." But he isn't getting used like he would have been if he were producing good hips.
Of course, you've got to weigh hip and elbow status alongside the other merits of the dog. A Bernese Mtn. Dog with excellent hips and elbows but with a very poor character may not be worth using for breeding. In contrast, a dog with less than excellent hips, but with outstanding merit and character may be worth using if mated to a carefully chosen mate.
Q: Your book, "Genetics of the Dog," seems to be on the must-read list of many responsible breeders. So, in addition to buying your book, what does a person need to know to become a good dog breeder?
A: In my view, the first need is to know history. If one does not know history one is forced to repeat it. Read all you can on your breed. That will include some books that are rubbish and some that are good. You have to learn to sort wheat from chaff, and you also have to start to put facts and figures to dogs. Breed surveys , if you’re lucky enough to find one that has been done on your breed, are also a very valuable source of information.
Then you have to start putting flesh on the names in your dog's pedigree or in the pedigrees of dogs you are seeing at shows and other events . You need to go to events and sit at the feet of some expert (if you can find one) to learn about the breed as it is. Going to a show is not enough if you spend it in the bar or just watching dogs go around without seeing what makes one better than another.
Ask questions and listen to answers, trying always to sort the relevant from the useless. Do not become hidebound by specific ideas; question everything, even what I'm saying and what I write in my books. Think about everything, digest it, discuss it and ask more questions. Always try to learn and advance your understanding of the breed.
More than anything, what breeders have to do is breed for themselves and to further the breed in general. They should only breed a litter when they want to carry on the line, and not because they need to update their car, etc. And from that first litter forward, a breeder also has to keep complete records on his dogs, and make contracts with his puppy buyers so that he will look after the dogs he brings into the world. A breeder who has no interest in rescue of what he has produced is of no value to anyone, and of even less value to his breed.
As a responsible breeder you need to work with others, you need to collaborate towards the same ideal, so that the number of good quality breeding animals is increased. You also have an obligation to learn as much as possible about the genetics of animal breeding because that is what you are going to indulge in. You need to know basic genetics because you must put your dogs through the necessary schemes (screening and evaluation of hips/eyes/elbows, etc.) as appropriate.
Breeders need to understand how to select for simple recessive (single gene) traits and polygenic traits like hip dysplasia. They also need to understand the concept of heritability. With polygenic traits, if the heritability is very low (litter size, for example, has low heritability), then little progress results from direct selection because the performance of an individual is not a good guide to his breeding merit. With high heritabilities (hip dysplasia has a relatively high heritability), progress is better because the animal's performance is a good guide to breeding merit.
Even so, you must not breed only by the numbers. A good breeder goes about the job with a set aim of trying to produce functional dogs that approximate to the ideal. I see breeders who cannot see beyond a head or a light eye or a good set of hips. Such breeders are doomed to failure because they do not look at the whole dog.
And you’ve always got to try to select stock that is not only much better than the breed average, but much better than your kennel average. If you breed from parents that are better than average, their progeny will be better than average, but not, on average, as good as their parents. If you breed from parents that are worse than average, their progeny will also be worse than average, but not, on average, as poor as the parents. There is, in effect, a pull towards the mean. And that’s why it can be so hard to improve the breed.
Finally, all breeders will produce defects if they breed long enough. Those who tell you that they do not produce defects have either stopped breeding, breed hardly at all or are being economical with the truth. There is no crime in producing a defect. The crime, if any, lies in what you do about a defect. If you bury yours quickly and keep quiet about it, and I do the same with mine, then sooner or later we may use each other's dogs and pay the penalty for not having been honest with one another and with the breed we probably profess to love.
In simple terms, breeding is all about selecting the best and then mating the best to the best. "Best" is a relative term and to a great many breeders best is what they happen to own. Sometimes they are correct in that assumption but more often than not they are wrong because they are not critical enough of their own stock.
You have to distinguish clearly between the pick of the litter and the best breeding material. Many breeders are quite capable of deciding which is the best puppy in a litter. Things can certainly go wrong with hips, mouths or other features between 8 weeks and adulthood but nonetheless pick of the litter is not very difficult to find given some experience of the breed and the bloodlines. The difficulty is in deciding whether pick of litter is an outstanding dog in breed terms. The pick in a litter may be little more than an ordinary dog when assessed against the breed standard. Breeding, if it is to be successful, requires the breeder to be able to distinguish between ordinary dogs and outstanding ones and, ideally, to be able to do this quite early in the dog's life.Mating dogs is not dog breeding. It is the reproduction of dogs. A breeder should be seeking to mate the right dogs in the right way so that he produces the ideal (or as near to it as possible) in his kennels. That is only feasible if the breeder knows what the ideal is.
by Abby Normal on 07 April 2012 - 11:14
|People should also be aware that the upper end of the SV score range of 'NZ' is a dog afflicted with moderate HD.|
"Now for example, one top winning German Shepherd has a hip score of 13 which is better than breed average. But the average in his progeny is 30-something. As soon as that became obvious, his stud career has gone down the tube".
This would not be the case in future in Germany if the SV changed the ratings as suggested. An average of 30 something would be included in NZ, which would be given an 'a' stamp.
I sincerely hope that this information is incorrect.
by Gustav on 07 April 2012 - 17:31
|I see Dr. Willis emphasizes "functional dog breeding" and points out that we must see beyond breeding for hips only.....among other singular things. He fully realizes that you cannot eliminate NZ hips in the breed without other aspects (like temperament or functionality) suffering. So that all important balance must be struck and maintained.|
by TingiesandTails on 08 April 2012 - 03:28
|Videx I think there is various information out there and the 2011 Zuchtordnung still mentions "normal", "fast normal" and "noch zugelassen", you are right.|
I read other SV information that this will be changed, and I'm not the only one, I thought it was the Zuchtordnung but it must have been somewhere else.
I think the big difference here is that working dog breeders are also concerned about the breed's health and won't breed without healthy hips, however the ZW and Koerklasse is minor, as workability is always most important (and of course a dog can't work when he/she is not healthy).
by Abby Normal on 08 April 2012 - 08:33
Previously that you stated that all hips included in the 3 grades inc NZ were healthy anyway and it made no difference. Am I reading your post above incorrectly, or are you now saying the WL breeders are concerned about this change and it's health implications?
This raises an interesting point. If a German breeder wants to know more precisely what his dogs hips are like, rather than just accepting a blanket 'a' stamp, how could he do that?
Obviosly still basing the discussion on the premise that this information is correct.
by Videx on 08 April 2012 - 10:44
|The SV routinely discuss potential development of their existing systems, as well as potential new systems. Certainly the Korung and the Hip & Elbow and additional health screening schemes will be amongst them. The inclusion of Long Coats is a good example and the introduction of the Zuchtwart (ZW - Family breed value for hips) is another. The possible achievement of a Korung without the current requirement of first obtaining the full set of an AD, BH and full Schutzhund qualification, but maybe some single test which combines all the key aspects of these tests into a pretest for a Korung. Schutzhund, IPO etc would obviously still be available and I personally believe this is definitely the way to go forward. Such a more simplified but very relevant system would attract many more countries and more people into the SV GSD accreditation for breeding, and that would benefit our GSD breed world-wide immensely.|
My main point being that some "SV discussions" may leak out and then "naturally" they are exaggerated etc. I understand that recently much greater effort has gone into the stopping of such "leakages". Beware of rumours, many are asserted as facts.
by Member on 08 April 2012 - 12:47
Good post Videx:
The way people latch on to rumours and add their own ideas as to what is actually happening within the breed must be a cause for concern amoung those who come on to the PDB just to look for help and general information. I am surprised at the lack of knowledge of some of the people who post on this site when writing replys.
by Abby Normal on 08 April 2012 - 14:45
|Guys - it is a discussion based around the implications of a change 'if it is proves to be correct'. People aren't taking it as fact - yet. But are posing some 'what ifs'|
I think it is quite natural for such discussion to follow, and I see no cause for concern to people coming to the DB for information, that is what the OP has done and as yet the question remains unanswered.
Since you have raised it Videx, watering down the requirements for Korung may be considered by some to be detrimental to the GSD in the long term. I think it depends where you are in terms of how important you consider working ability to be in the GSD. It may attract more people and countries into the SV GSD accreditation for breeding and consequently more money, but at what cost in terms of working ability and the heart of what a GSD should be? There has already been so much watering down in the working tests. No I resoundingly disagree that this would benefit the GSD breed, quite the opposite. Like many kennel clubs their numbers have been in decline and this would certainly help to get their numbers up but if it happens, it will be at the expense of the breed. Anyway, that is going off topic somewhat.
Did you never discuss what you had heard the UK Kennel Club might be doing?
by Mackenzie on 08 April 2012 - 15:27
I feel sure that for the people that come here to the PDB for help and general information it must be of greater concern that very little of what they are seeking comes from the more experienced people in this community. I have already mentioned on this thread that I am disappointed in the absence of comment on the topic under discussion here. If so many consider themselves to be knowledgeable in the breed and the workings of the SV I would have thought they would have worthwhile information at this point in the discussion to clarify the situation. Just quoting known facts, however interesting and useful as that may be, or, being critical of the less knowledgeable readers to my mind is coming up short. I hope that the more knowledgeable people will come forward and advance positive information and opinion in relation to the topic of this thread.
by Videx on 08 April 2012 - 19:42
|I read and understood the first post on this thread and the ASSERTIONS made on a later post and and.|
Slipping and sliding is a technique employed by those who wish to rewrite history in order to place thenselves in a more correct position. In other words bullshit.
Now understand why the more experienced and knowledgeable avoid commenting on PDB. Or do as expected at this point go immmediately into denial.
by Abby Normal on 08 April 2012 - 22:22
by Mackenzie on 09 April 2012 - 04:09
I disagree with David when in an earlier post he says “The possible achievement of a Korung without the current requirement of first obtaining the full set of an AD, BH and full Schutzhund qualification, but maybe some single test which combines all the key aspects of these tests into a pretest for a Korung. Schutzhund, IPO etc would obviously still be available and I personally believe this is definitely the way to go forward“. The AD (Ausdauer) and BH (Begleidhund) tests form the fundamental basis for the dogs before allowing them to progress to SchH1. The tests ensure that the dogs are fit and have learning power, including mental stability, to undertake the rigours of the SchH examination which includes the dangerous exercise of biting with absolute control. I would like to say at this point that not every dog is suitable to undertake the biting exercise. To water these down into a pre Koerung test is just a charter for the breeders who do not bother to train, or, learn how to train their dogs in these disciplines, and therefore, I do not see why the current system should be altered. There is no benefit to the breed.
There are a lot of people who have been around for many years and, therefore, some are deemed to be experienced and knowledgeable by longevity. However, slipping and sliding, as David puts it, is a technique employed by some as a technique to avoid revealing how little they really know. For example, there are many breeders of long standing who have never trained a dog to do anything more than run around in a circle. This puts a different perspective on why some of the more experienced and knowledgeable avoid commenting on the PDB.
I am sorry but I seemed to have drifted away from the theme of this thread. The question raised by the original poster appears to be still unanswered.
by Mackenzie on 12 April 2012 - 04:49
Although I gave up my membership of the SV last year I have been able to make enquiries about this topic. The situation as I understand it is as follows
1. HD/ED there are no changes and the procedure will be as before
2. The Koerung. This has changes and there will now be no Koerklasse 1 or 2 but just one Koerklasse.
3. The rules for protection work will be stronger and similar to the BSZS
4. The “fuss” (heel work) will be over a definite distance. If they fail to do this after three attempts they will fail the Koerung. If the dog fails it will be given two more attempts in one year at a later koerung.
5. TSB. Pronounced or sufficient and the dogs will be allowed three commands of “out”. If the do not come out then they will fail the Koerung and be classified as "Abbruch wegen Ungehorsam" which means finished by disobedience.
I hope that this is helpful.
by Abby Normal on 12 April 2012 - 05:39
|Thank you Mackenzie for clarification. I am relieved the 3 classification system will not be changed. |
by Member on 12 April 2012 - 07:46
|Thank you, the information from Mackenzie is how I understand the position is for the future. For the first time we have the full changes discussed on this thread, and as mentioned in an early post this information without any guesswork is what we required. Too much speculation and personal agenda is the reason for people leaveing the PDB. The posible changes mentioned regarding Hips which would have affected the ZW system was just one of the post that caused some debate and was never going happen.|
by Videx on 12 April 2012 - 10:26
|Thank you Mackenzie, I will refrain from further comment on this.|
by Mackenzie on 12 April 2012 - 10:57
|Please feel free to comment on the topic David. Positive input is welcome and needed to maintain a healthy discussion on this and any other thread.|