German Shepherd Dog > Roach Back vs Straight Back - show (112 replies)
by Blitzen on 28 March 2012 - 01:03
|Ibrahim, read von Savitch's website.|
by Blitzen on 28 March 2012 - 01:18
|GSDGuy8, tha photo you posted is obviously out of proportion and has been addressed here before. The dog has a roach back, but the photo exagerates the degree.|
by Blitzen on 28 March 2012 - 01:20
|Von Savitch, I assume you have been in this breed for a long time and have titled many dogs to feel as if you have earned the right to tell SL breeders to get another breed.|
by Ibrahim on 28 March 2012 - 07:44
There is no doubt that every breed has its own successes and failures, GSD which is one of if not the most successful breed is no exception, both types the show and work have successes and failures to deal with, to verify what can be done to better each type can only be done through constructive dialogue that is not based on incorrect generalizations, insults or uncalled for repeated attackss or degrading the efforts and achievements of breeders in either camp.
I see most of the insults come from few of the work enthusiats thinking by this they can make their point get through or they can score higher points in front of the spectators and that is in no way of benefit for the breed itself.
On the other hand I do not see this attitude from the real knowledgable work enthusiasts who have history of commitment and hard work to preserve the good traits/quality and uses of the GSD as a breed, these are the people who can truly make a difference as they are respected, their views are based on facts, they do not generalize, have no personal vendettas and they do listen to the other side and present their debates in a mature attitude which proves fruitful as dialogue continues. No one should claim he owns the total truth, no one should claim the showline of today is perfect or is total disaster, same applies to the work line, the show may have more serious problems to deal with than the work line that MIGHT be the truth, I personally don't know for sure or fact and it is beyond my actual experience with GSDs but I listen and accept all views coming from rational people. The work is very much deviated from the correct conformation and good type that MIGHT be the truth, I personally don't know for sure or fact and it is beyond my actual experience with GSDs. Again I listen and accept all views coming from rational people.
What I don't accept is someone trying to force his/her view, belief or thought by terrorizing generalized claims and insults to shut the other view down.
I know you personally conduct constructive dialogues and agree in principle to the idea I'm trying to explain here.
by noddi on 28 March 2012 - 10:09
|Ibrahim,excellent n well written posts.This debate on backlines will continue even when we,re all long gone n buried.I,m getting sick n tired of banging my head against a brick wall.Yes,it does appear that the most nastier comments come from a few on the working side.I was most incensed by Von.Savitch attack on the S/L animals.Mine for one most certainly dont have temperament failings n i,m absolutely certain that if someone did try to attack me my youngest at 9 yrs.would most certainly defend me as she puffs herself up n looks more intimidating till i acknowledge the person coming towards me.NO growling or barking but just more attentive at the oncoming person or ppl.until they pass then she goes back to her favorite pastime trying to catch the squirrels.That to me is more an indication of nerve that an animal trained to bite as hard as it can on the sleeve,that imho is conditioning.I,m no lover of the overangulated,shortly proptioned,severly sloping gsds,but dont think there,s that many(especially here in UK)as some peeps.imagine.I too,think that the gsd in the photo GSDguy08 printed is not correct but yes its far better to see the animal in the flesh n yes photos can very easily give a wrong impression of a totally correct gsd.Mimi ,your guy looks a very well balanced young man,exactly my type,albeit he looks very young.We,as a breed here in the UK(german side)are venturing into showing as per the SV.shows w/o UK KC intervention where ALL ADULTS shown have to be health tested,breed surveyed n we do have a working class plus an adult class as we havent got many schtzund type clubs at the mo.Believe me in a few years many more show exhibitors here in the UK will have adult show gsds titled in schtzund,BUT NOT THE OUT N OUT ALSATIANISTS,tho.even that fraction here are also health testing n having a go.All i can say is HERE,S TO AN UNITED GSD FRATERNITY IN THE UK IN THE FUTURE.Carole Spelman Rheinmeister gsds.|
by Ibrahim on 28 March 2012 - 11:25
From what you just said and having a good idea of your previous posts, you are a person I can rely on and trust your opinion as I do not see a narrow minded thinking nor a one-sided approach to various issues on the breed , plus your background shows your experience and contribution to the breed.
Even if you ever happen to present a point of view I might think is "strange" to what I know or heard or was told I will not under any circumstances irrespectfully challenge you, I will listen to what you say, present my piece of knowledge and see what others have to say on the same topic.
One should always assume that he/she might be wrong and others can be correct, all can be resolved through dialogue not shouting and fighting. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
by Blitzen on 28 March 2012 - 11:36
|Well said, Noddi and Ibrahim.|
by Von Savitch K9 on 30 March 2012 - 00:14
|The dogs I breed are for personel protection and police work, I am not one who is impressed with Shutzhund or IPO titles its a game its more about the handler/trainer than the dog I know the difference between testing and training a dog or putting it through the paces. If you need to have a dog scored in a compition to tell you weather the dog is correct of if it can work thats up to you. I have seen many tittled dogs that are not worthy of a working title and in a pressure situation would not be able to perform. I have been around these dogs for many many years and for me its all about its ability to WORK some of the better working dogs I have come across DO NOT boast a tittled filled pedigree. |
My statement about the showline GSD is correct for most of the general poupulation of showline breeders if you put yourself in that catorgory thats on you Ibrahim. And the dogs I produce speak for themselves they do not need a political title. My dogs are not pets they are service dogs compainions and protectors and all dogs placed for such purpose have tested true in really world situations. I am not out for people to like me my goal is to leave the GSD breed better off than when I became associated with it I do not beleive that showline people working with the working line people will improve the breed the only think that will is seperation. I have devoted alot of time and money to help insure this breed stays a working breed for service and protection and the dogs that I produce have a complete inner core which means it does not posses just good aggression active or defensive or temperment or prey drive or defensive drive or solid nerve or a high pain thresh hole they have it all, if that dog happens to be handsome or pretty or what ever discriptive word you choose for looks its just a bonus.
I breed maybe one litter a year I find the correctly matched male for my females I do not by chance own them both. I do not breed for a living I own a manufacturing buisness and have been lucky enough to be able to do what I do with out the restrictions of economics.
I am from the beleif the German Shepherd dog should not be bread for show period. It has become more and more difficult to find german shepherd dogs untainted by showlines especially west german lines this is disturbing to me.
Von Savitch K9
by Blitzen on 30 March 2012 - 01:43
by Ibrahim on 30 March 2012 - 06:06
|Von Savitch k9,|
Producing dogs to work as k9s and that do/can do actual service/job is a highly respected breeding program as well as a fruitful service to one's community I have no doubt about that and I will never degrade your work, No Sir.
But that said it really hurts when you belittle other's work and achievement, don't you think?!
by pod on 30 March 2012 - 08:48
|Ibraham, the video you posted of Gina. I do agree that this is an improvement on many of the more exaggerated constructions we see on some GSDs but still, Gina to me is over done and far from ideal in movement. |
The topline is not excessively sloping or roached in movement by today's standard but if this degree had been present in a dog in the UK ring in the 80s, it would have been seen as too exaggerated. It's the gradual progress into this type that has desensitised us to the serious movement faults that occur with this type of construction. Yes we were getting long reach and drive back then but soundness was paramount in the ring.
If we compare Gina's movement with that of Dingo - first the forehand. On Gina there is exaggerated lift of the foreleg, compensatory for the rear overangulation, producing overreach. The hindquarters - hock walking on the forward step, sickle hock on the backward. Excessive up and down movement of the croup. Overall there is slackness seen mostly in flapping of the front pasterns. All very different from the balanced stride and firmness of the more ecconomical gait of Dingo.
by Ibrahim on 30 March 2012 - 09:10
I agree to a great extent, just I beg you take into account that this type of gaiting on leash does not do the dog justice, if she was gaiting freely she would look much better, but I agree with your analysis.
by Red Sable on 30 March 2012 - 09:20
|I liked your post Joseph, and agree. :)|
by Abby Normal on 30 March 2012 - 10:46
|I am a little late commenting here Ibrahim on your post showing your dogs naturally and in stance. You know what I think of your dogs toplines - they are probably some of the best I have seen. You couldn't make them look roached no matter what stack you put them into LOL.|
I agree with pod, we have become desensitised to certain faults along the path that the GSD has taken, and now accept them as just part of being a GSD. Here or on the other thread someone made a statement that we need to re-orient ourselves to what is 'normal', and that I think is very true.
by Ibrahim on 30 March 2012 - 11:42
You add richness to any thread you participate in and I usually agree more than I disagree with you.
by Von Savitch K9 on 30 March 2012 - 12:03
My statement was not directed at you or your dogs I do not know you, I have made a general statment based on my knowalge of the breed and in respect to the purpose of its creation. This breed is special in many ways my hope is that all the folks involved here understand this and take very seriuosly there choices on mateing pairs and all the important carictoristics that make up the GSD. I would like to think we are all pulling the wagon in the same dirrection but what I see tells me otherwise.
Von Savitch K9
by Blitzen on 30 March 2012 - 13:23
How long have you been in GSD's, V Savitch?
by Von Savitch K9 on 30 March 2012 - 18:04
|conservitivly 20 years I am 44 years old.|
by Blitzen on 30 March 2012 - 18:15
|I didn't see one dog on your website over 6 years of age. Have you started over?|
BTW, isn't that a showline in your avatar?
by joanro on 30 March 2012 - 18:37
|Seems like all this back and forth-- show line vs working line and all this distaste/hatred of one camp for the other, could be resolved and ended by doing the logical thing; declare them TWO DISTINCT BREEDS. And every one can leave each to his/her own ideal to make better or worse what remains of a breed in trouble.|