German Shepherd Dog > Roach Back vs Straight Back - show (112 replies)
Roach Back vs Straight Back - show
by KuroOokami on 26 March 2012 - 15:48
|I am just curious.|
Someone told me that "roach back" dogs are not show quality animals. By roach back I mean any extensive angulation of the spine past the original 120 degree slope... so extensive roach.
But I have always thought roach is the show standard. And that the bigger the curve - as long as it doesn't affect movemen [specifically the trot] - it's actually better.
So in that case straight back / little angulation dogs are not conformation animals and as such more working type.
Am I wrong?
Are roach backs actually deemed negative in the showing world [my opinions as to their looks, well...]?
Or as said, the bigger the curve the better?
by GSDguy08 on 26 March 2012 - 17:24
|No dog should look like it's peeing at all times, or like someone stomped it's rear down permanently. How people can say an extreme slope actually helps a dog function or perform is beyond me. My guess though as to what is preferred......is that it comes down to what judges want. I've seen quite a few dogs for sale or stud (show lines) who looked in pain, or had such extreme slopes or bends, or whatever you want to call it (and these were not because of how the dogs were stacked) and tons of people would leave comments about how great the dog looked.....or asking how much they wanted for the dog.|
by SitasMom on 26 March 2012 - 17:39
take a look at the results of the last few seiger shows and tell us what you think.
by myret on 26 March 2012 - 17:46
I still dont understand someone thinks the roach back and angulated hindlegs is pretty looks like a banana with fur awful
now this is how a gsd shouæd look like healthy and atlethic
take a look at the healthy built this dog has not like you see today
by myret on 26 March 2012 - 17:49
|take a look at this already in the 60's the are starting to slope a bit awful|
by KuroOokami on 26 March 2012 - 19:07
|Oh some of those in the above link are not as bad as I've seen on american sites - there's some dogs that look like the hips are almost twisted to give the extent of slope.|
But then if this site is true roach backs began as early as 1960s... so I'm wondering what and what sort of twit decided these "things" looked better than straight-backed working line dogs. My dog Kuro [whom was unfortunately poisoned by our neighbours (coyotes, farming area)] was a DDR / Czech black sable male with no angulation to his spine.
On that note does anyone have any knowledge as to why roach backs became the "in thing" and the apparent approved ideal. I mean it's the worst in the way of soundness for the dog.
Website for 1960s dogs
by aaykay on 26 March 2012 - 19:19
|No dog should look like it's peeing at all times, or like someone stomped it's rear down permanently. How people can say an extreme slope actually helps a dog function or perform is beyond me. My guess though as to what is preferred......is that it comes down to what judges want. I've seen quite a few dogs for sale or stud (show lines) who looked in pain, or had such extreme slopes or bends, or whatever you want to call it (and these were not because of how the dogs were stacked) and tons of people would leave comments about how great the dog looked.....or asking how much they wanted for the dog. |
Fully agree with the above !
Whenever I see a roach-backed GSD and other others with their rear-ends sinking down into the ground, I want to puke. The ones where one can reliably find "normal" GSDs is among the working lines. When I got back into the GSD breed, after a gap of 20+ years, I did not hesitate one bit in going with a WL dog, since the WL, structurally and temperamentally, matches what I am looking for in a GSD.
by Mackenzie on 26 March 2012 - 19:25
|This is a topic that should not even reach a discussion level. The breed standard does not support dogs with a roach back. The roach back became the "in thing" because some breeders could no longer breed to the standard as laid down. So many animals are presented with a roach back these days that it has become accepted as normal. Newbies to the breed see this type of dog winning and think that this is correct, something that they can be forgiven for because they know no better and further they receive little or no education as to what is actually correct.|
Like so many other breeds ours faces the situation where breeders are unable to breed to the standard and decide that the existing standard should be changed to the type that they are producing. It is no wonder that that these changes when taken collectively are taking the breed on a one way route downhill.
The roach back is one of the contributing factors for the divisions in the breed. It affects the workability of the of the dog. Breeders, judges and Koermeisters need to wake up and get matters back on track.
by djc on 26 March 2012 - 19:28
|I also hate roach backs and it gets very frustrating showing a really nice dog only to be beaten by a roach back. Although, I do not think that this is a characteristic that the SV judges are looking FOR. I believe it is OVERLOOKED. As always there are some judges who agree with us and will put "roaches" further back and straight back dogs in front, but there are far too few of them out there.|
by joanro on 26 March 2012 - 19:43
|Everything posted thus far is very true,I think. However, I believe the judges are preferring the roach back and so even now when you look at some modern WLs, you see the same terrible top line and over angulation in hind legs. This gives them a top placing in show ring, but compromises the soundness desired in a working dog. In order to get conformation back to standard, judges need to change their evaluation to conform to breed standard.|
by myret on 26 March 2012 - 21:07
|the working line does also have a roached back not just the showlines and they are more so now than just 15 years ago|
by Skylagsd on 26 March 2012 - 21:39
The V154 dog in 2011 would have been my VA1 dog.
by joanro on 26 March 2012 - 21:53
|Skylagsd, I don't know what that dog looks like, but can only guess it has a straight back and much less hind leg angulation. Also, I would venture to say that dog is NOT the one every one flocks to with their females, even though he is probably the most correct. People are going to breed to the dog the JUDGES choose, propagating the horrendous conformation seen in the popup adds for puppies and young dogs on here.|
by macrowe1 on 26 March 2012 - 22:00
|I'm totally with GSDGuy. I can't stand the roached back look|
by dogshome9 on 26 March 2012 - 22:44
HERE WE GO AGAIN.
by joanro on 27 March 2012 - 00:58
|Dogs home, it's occurring in working lines as well. Not picking on show lines --the roach back should not be prevalent in ANY GSD.|
by GSDguy08 on 27 March 2012 - 01:33
|joanro, exactly, and it's unfortunate. There "are" some good looking/good structured show lines....and some terrible ones as well, just as with more and more working lines now. An ad I looked at earlier though for a show line litter...the sire looked to have a nice structure, not much of a slope......but the dam, the back started to slope from the neck.....and then partial ways down it just took a sharp angle on the last half of the back. In no way was that normal or because of the stack, it just looked really bad. No matter how that dog would stand, the last half of the back would be stomped down" in looks, so to speak. If I had the ad up still I'd post the picture of it.|
by VonIsengard on 27 March 2012 - 02:47
|Did you guys look at the site he linked? LOL you are seriously getting trolled.|
by SitasMom on 27 March 2012 - 04:25
The body length should exceed the height at the withers. It shouldamount to about 110 to 117% of the height at the witthers. Dogs with a short, square or tall build are undesirable.
by Blitzen on 27 March 2012 - 12:52
Who does like roach backs? No one I know. However, they win in the ring and that is the deciding factor for selecting breeding stock.