German Shepherd Dog > Conformation Showing forum (54 replies)
by Blitzen on 22 March 2012 - 15:26
|Gustav, to be blatantly honest, if I knew then what I know now, I'd have never got into ASL or GSL. I didn't and I am not not a young girl anymore so my ASL/GSL mongrel will be my last dog. I am appalled every time I go to a show, German or American when I see so many faulty dogs. Anyone who can't see a roachy topline and the accompanying overreaching gait has to be blind. I am also appalled when I see WL's acting badly lunging at the ends of their leashes trying to get people and other dogs. I was more than mildly pissed when a WL attacked my dog when she was going for her BH. IMO WL's have more saving graces than SL's but they probably aren't perfect either. |
What exactly can the WL breeders bring to the table that would help the SL breeders improve what they have? Most are never going to breed to a WL and the WL breeders don't want to breed to the SL's. Would WL people take anything a SL suggests to them seriously?
by Mackenzie on 22 March 2012 - 15:39
|One thing that I notice from both sides is that breeders say they are trying to breed for the good points but will not face up to the fact that at the same time they are stamping in the undesirable things. The undesirables often take generations to breed out. The most common example is hip dysplasia. After nearly fifty years of x-raying dogs and the hundreds of thousands of scores worlwife one would think that by now the "noch zugelassen" grade at least could be dispensed with. The UK are trying very hard with their testing for different problems that before long the dogs will be tested out of existence. Testing should be done on the balance of probability of the diseases occurring e.g. if the incidence of any disease is below say 1.0 percent of the population in any country or worldwide is there any real need for testing? What breeders need is more information on the things that can arise and give due care to them when considering a mating. The pitfall is that when a breeder has a problem e.g. epilepsy as an example, knowledge is only discovered on a case by case basis because the breeder keeps it to themselves. To make worthwhile progress there are so many areas where people from any side must begin some sort of dialogue and openness.|
by Shawty on 22 March 2012 - 15:40
|Mackenzie,,I addressed Slamdunc on the open forum for the same reason I am going to address you openly on the forum. Both of you have addressed moderation openly on the forum. I believe it is fair and reasonable to an extent to address those who address you publicly. You could have sent me your comment via a PM. You chose to address me publicly and I return in kind. Moderation does value its members and we do not as you suggest, "just get rid of them"..not easily anyway.|
*Any further comments directed towards moderation should be sent via PM per TOS.
by Slamdunc on 22 March 2012 - 16:17
I appreciate you addressing me on the thread directly, thank you.
by Mackenzie on 22 March 2012 - 16:54
|I have no more to contribute to this thread. I am tired of the totally irrelevent comments posted here. Mackenzie|
by Ibrahim on 22 March 2012 - 18:11
|I salute Gustav and Blitzen, maybe their last couple of posts is how we can exchange views and knowledge constructively.|
Today I paid about $ 50 for anti-virus software for my lab-top and I bought my daughter an I Pad-2 and paid about $ 600. Isn't it amazing we pay money left and right happily on various basic and non-basic things and when some one offers us his/her life time experience at $ 0.0 we don't rush and pick up whatever we can carry
by Slamdunc on 22 March 2012 - 19:11
|Isn't it amazing we pay money left and right happily on various basic and non-basic things and when some one offers us his/her life time experience at $ 0.0 we don't rush and pick up whatever we can carry |
Sometimes, when it is free people do not put any value on it.
by Gustav on 22 March 2012 - 19:16
|Ibrahim and Blitzen, one of the basic problems with both lines today is the reason for breeding. Breeders should have as FIRST in their mind the end use result as a basis for breeding. Now that end use result can be herding, military/poilce work, or even service work....but the physical and the mental capacities must lend themselves to doing these tasks. Instead dogs are bred for gait and longbite. Happens all the time. Also, there are so many unexperienced breeders breeding today, in terms of knowing what it takes to actual perform in these venues. Sport and Show people really believe they are the current experts on temperament and structure. Yes, you can get some good dogs from sport breeding in terms of work, but trust me it is becoming harder and harder. Sure you can get some good herding and service dogs from SL, but its becoming rarer and rarer. But it all starts with dialogue, then eventually Judges and breeders will start to reward the middle again.|
I am reminded when Lance Collins gave a dog a 100 in protection at the BSP. You could tell the unbalanced sport mentality based people, because they went to minute details to show he wasn't perfect. I looked at it differently, the judge saw an overall routine that reflected what he expected a dog to perform that was Correct. He also considered intangibles that the sport world is missing like strength of character in the work.....he saw power and internal fortitude in this dog that should set the standard for what breeders should strive for, as opposed to a correct robotic routine that every detail may have been perfect, but was missing non measuring attributes. Many didn't get it and still don't, because they are ruled by points, instead of anal execution. We need more judge like Lance who can help shape the direction breeders are moving toward,(and the 100 pt dog will be bred to because of his score by many sheep), with making placements like he did. That routine the dog did was great for showing Sch as a breed barometer, although not as perfect as a sport barometer. I could make some similar analogies with conformation dogs but the rank and file will feel bashed, but the point is to change the breed we have to be breeding for the right things.JMO
by beetree on 22 March 2012 - 19:28
|I rather enjoyed that post, Gustav! This one's for you.|
by Ibrahim on 22 March 2012 - 19:39
I need to go back to your last post one or more times so I make sure I understand perfecly all of it, but some of what you said in the beginning rang a bell, and I beg the pardone of other contributors to go a bit off topic and ask this question:
In my country we still don't have clubs, no shows and no shutzhund, we have a few trainers who can teach obedience and some biting and attack on command, people here love the German Shepherd since the TV Rin Tin Tin, Most people can not import puppies from outside due to the high cost, there are two types of people here, those who want a beautiful GSD which can be a deterrent at their houses, and people who need dogs for real guarding at their property or their farm.
For the latter people if let us say a GSD breeder wants to breed GSDs to meet their needs and at the same time he doesn't want to make the mistake of breeding for one purpose, what should he look for in dogs to start with? Mind you those people do not need high drives or sporty dogs, they want a dog to guard and be safe with owner and family, that's all.
I am not expecting an immediate answer and if you feel I am way off topic I can start another thread and ask the same to you there.
by Blitzen on 22 March 2012 - 20:10
I agree, Gustav. One of my friends is an AKC judge and she has been driving herself nuts trying to make other judges and breeders understand that the flying trot is not correct for the breed. So far she hasn't had much luck.
by Ibrahim on 22 March 2012 - 20:50
I don't find the right words to comment on your last post, it is so concise yet an ocean of meanings. Maybe tops the best that was written on the breed current status & how to rectify the downfall in the fewest words possible. I envy your ability to express your thoughts in such effectiveness.
by Red Sable on 22 March 2012 - 21:15
|Yes, Gustav, I love reading your posts, spot on if you ask me!|
by Gustav on 22 March 2012 - 21:42
|Blitzen, keep encouraging her and let her know if she get the reputation of looking at a balanced total dog, she may not get invited to do the national...lol....but she will gain new people with other types coming into the ring to show under her. This is where turn around starts....may not be popular, but it will be recognized.|
Good Luck to her!!!!
by sonora on 27 March 2012 - 23:37
This tread is really good, imputs by Gustave is absolutely correct,Blitzen, Ibrahim and all others were great
and I agree with most of it.
My 2 cents worth on why the difference is this,
a)Most if not all breeders breed for money for whatever reason,and do not consider the end use.
b)The criteria for selection of breeding pardners is different.The forcus is in different areas.
c)The demand for show/line is very much higher, as many people
just want a realiable Germand Shepherd, which is of sound mind and body,
which they can manage and depend on.
d)They are not interested in shows or how hard the dog can bite.
e)Please note,the world over, not many people have the space and
time for training or conditioning a dog for shows or trails.
f) What percentage of pups we bred and sold are shown or trailed,or even
trained in basic obedience.?
g)To improve the breed the disqualifying faults,must be must be standardised,
for all competitions.
f) Only breed surveyed dogs with Class 1 or 2, is permited to be bred,all others
to be nutered and no certification to be issued. All puppies with minor faults
must be nutered prior to being sold.
And most important,while being fully aware of the shortcomings in the breed,
we all should be singing the praises on the preformance of the winners of various
competitions and deeds of our German Shepherd dogs the world over.