German Shepherd Dog > OX z Jirkova dvora Progeny? (41 replies)
by GSDPACK on 06 March 2012 - 21:52
|Ox has a name..well advertised dog from well known kennel that happens to have a very desirable black sable color.|
It is easier to sell puppies for people who are new to breeding, makes more sense to breed to a dog that has his followers.
Trust me Orin doesn't mind :o) nor does the owner.
But I understand what you mean, it is mind boggling, right?
by Ace952 on 06 March 2012 - 22:43
Yes there are some good breeders in the U.S. and in Canada. The OP stated that they would like to use a son out of OX when their 1 yr old female is ready to be bred, which will still be another year at least. They are looking in Canada first for a Ox offspring and then if they can't find one they like they would send the female to Jinopo and use Ox as the stud.
by Ibrahim on 06 March 2012 - 23:11
|Thanks for explaining, much appreciated, I hope I didn't sound negative in my comment and the OP surely knows best for his/her plans. I really don't have anything against using studs from Europe especially when those studs are well known & proven like Jinopo's and I'm not against training dogs in Europe, but it really looks strange to me as in the States you have thousands of quality titled dogs from all bloodlines, West, East, Czech etc. Some imported and some locally bred, and I notice a trend among some breeders to use foreign studs and I can't imagine you don't have a local substitute from same linage and or equivalent advantages suitable and match the bitch's.|
Some of the best trainers in the world are locally available in the US, so many clubs and same titles can be obtained in the US and yet I know that some send their dogs to Europe for training, that looks strange. It looks strange to a non US resident as myself, I can see your reasoning and I respect that but it just doesn't feel the norm. thing to do really.
by judron55 on 07 March 2012 - 13:00
|Let's be honest, many of the best studs are overseas which is why many pups are imported rather than bought domestically|
There are plenty of excellent stud dogs here in the states and Canada. Just as many great pups born here as in Europe. As soon as the results of the BSP/WUSV/Sieger show are announced...the buying frenzy is on....gotta have that pup from the winner:-)
For instance...Mac von der Kine, Ceasar von Spitzbubezwinger, Crok von der Mördersdell, Harro von der Staatsmacht, Bollo von Skandinavika, Unkas vom Riedschlurgi, Branko vom Salztalblick, Belschik von Eicken-Bruche, Irmus Galan Nalag, Grisu von MaKeRa, Veit von der Salztal-Höhe, Cid von der Sandkautschneise, Terror von der Staatsmacht have all produced litters in the US. Garak von Heksterhorst, Ivo von der Daelenberghütte, Drago vom Patriot, Lübeck von der Mahler-Meister, Jukon von der Staatsmacht, Kofi vom Kiebitzende all had litters in Canada. They are just a few. I've seen some nice Rosso pups here in the states out of Czech bitches. Anne Kent, Aja Singh, Steve Hong, Molly Graf breed some very nice dogs as does Carmen Duggan. She is in Canada...she doesn't do schutzhund:-)
by Ibrahim on 07 March 2012 - 16:44
|Very interesting info and facts Jurdon55.|
by Ace952 on 07 March 2012 - 16:55
|Ibrahim - I totally understand where you are coming from and see you point of view. Where you live compared to the states, yes, we have an abundance of trainers and dogs. |
That number decreases once you start breaking it down though. For example, when it comes to trainers as we all know, not every trainer is good/great trainer. The good/great trainer may not personality wise work out for you or teach what you are looking for (i.e. Sch vs PSA vs PP). Then depending on where you live, you may not have someone in your area and if you do find someone they are 2 or 3 hours away. Then add in the legth of time it takes to train. There are some great trainers overseas who have all day to train and can get things done a lot faster. I know 2 breeders/trainers I would send my dogs to for training overseas. Difference also is they can obtain breed surveys, show ratings as well as different titles (ZVV, FH, TART, ZOP, ZPO to name a few) which aren't available over here. You can always get the dog back and still handle the dog in IPO if you want. Again its about having someone you can trust.
You also mention using a substitute. As with substitutes, they aren't exactly what you want so you have to compromise and when it comes to dogs, how bad do you really want to compromise? Many breeders even in other countries wait and save up in order to breed to the stud that they want and feels is the perfect match for their female and will travel a long ways to do so. Breeders may not want to compromise as you certainly can change what you could get from the pups.
Judron - I totally agree and the second major point is that those breeders work their dogs and if it is a big named stud, you see what he has produced with a variety of bitches. And very true, once a dog wins or is at least a competitor in a major event then people start searching. You have named some very nice dogs which should be used and breeders who have a ton of knowledge.
by Ibrahim on 07 March 2012 - 17:47
I have to admit that what you say makes better sense than my previous comment. For me as a simple dog owner all those studs in the US and Canada are more than enough, but for a breeder who has high ambitions it makes sense to use a stud in Europe which is of high caliber if he/she can afford it.
That said I realize that an excellent producing stud wouldn't produce 100% marvellous offspring, the bitch plays a big role too. God knows which parent my Erri followed. And so I be fair and honest I also understand the better looking littermate might not be the better producer, history tells us so. Horray to Ox and Orin and better luck to me with my other pups. I know I either stepped my line here or am about to do so as GSDPack has more than enough good females for her lovely Orin, I should stop before I make her unhappy with me.
by Gusmanda on 07 March 2012 - 19:21
|I was ranting about the same thing on a different forum the other day, don't understand why a pup born in Europe is perceived of higher value than a pup born in the America's from the same sire and dam. Customers perception of value plays a big role, if a customer is willing to pay more for european pup/stud....|
by Ace952 on 07 March 2012 - 19:55
Yes I think for the general dog owners it shouldn't make a difference as I agree there are great breeders over here who produce very nice dogs that can suit their needs. I think the main thing (which it didn't hit me to mention until now) are the price of the pups. Puppies here in the U.S. are priced way higher than pups in Europe. As we all have talked about this subject and lack of warranties and all but price is a main sticking point. Why pay $1500 plus shipping to get a pup born in the US when you can get a pup born in europe for around $1000 - $1200 inclusing shipping. And in Europe as Judron pointed out, you have top studs over there with many more kennels to choose from. Wider selection.
You are correct again. A excellent producing stud won't always produce championship level pups as there are a myriad of factors with the main 2 being a) the knowledge of the breeder and b) the famles being used. I am guessing that many people look to stack the deck in their favor (just like breeders do when they select the right stud for the right female). I think if you ask your breeder and showed them videos of Erri and talked about the dog in depth they should be able to tell you which things (not all but generally speaking) they get from the mother/father.
I don't think anyone could go wrong with Ox or Orin and I would prefer to use them than a offspring just to "stack the deck in my favor". :)
Gus - I understand what you are saying but that to me is extremely rare as it is more hypothetical than realistic. I don't think you will really see a litter of pups from the same sire & dam sold in europe at one time and then a repeat breeding of this in the states. Reason being you need both the sire and dam in each country. You will get one (ie stud being in europe and then finally sent to the US.) but not both.
by Gusmanda on 07 March 2012 - 21:02
|Wow, I didn't know average price in the US was higher than that of europe. I assume Czeck republic mainly? I would assume pups from Netherlands, Germany, etc would cost more than in the US. The most expensive pups I've asked about are those from Tiekerhook.|
I have seen a litter of X and Y dogs in Denmark, and the exact same sire and dam imported into Mexico, yet people paid more for litter born in Denmark than the litter born in Mexico, even though the sire and dam where the same. Many people advertise "europen parents" as selling points, so I guess that has a big influence in the issue.
by vomeisenhaus on 07 March 2012 - 21:34
|Ace952... could you tell us what "reputable breeders" of top working line dogs in europe are selling their pups for $1000 - $12000 usd including shipping? Sincerely. Kurt. You may pm me if you like.|
by GSDPACK on 08 March 2012 - 00:02
There is plenty of them, vomeisenhaus... all you have to do is do a little looking around. If you know the language, you are pretty much set!
People in Czech don't do Legendary, they do breedings to a dog that will produce well with the bitch they have. Yes some had to sell a litter so they bred to the new champ, but then see how much garbage is out there out of the Legendary new winners. They brought every four legged female to them and hoped for a sale!
Just because a stud is a Legendary WUSV winner it does not mean he will produce well with a nerve basket that got its title at the midnight trail and barely passed the breed survey.
Till people learn to actually look for a dog instead for the names.... then they will pay much more for a puppy than they could if they only looked little more. I only wonder when this one particular dog I have been watching develop into a very nice animal will become the next wave of "must have a puppy out of him"...
He will be the next Legend... and the price for a puppy will go up. When it happens I let you know. I am giving it another year max!
by vomeisenhaus on 08 March 2012 - 00:48
|gsdpack... said "people in czech don't do legendary they do breedings to a a dog that will produce well with the bitch they have". Would that be a breeding such as jinopo did with ox that ibrahim was clearly dissapointed with and gave/sold said dog to his frined? Both stiud & bitch owned by jinopo. Many top kennels in europe are breeding to dogs that did not win the wusv or bsp. The pup in my avatar will be 10mo old tomorrow and will retrive dumbell over the hurdle and wall. And at a young age is starting to show "real working drives" capable of dual purpose police work and she is a female. :) . Father is 6x bsp participant opal von der roderburg. Best placing in bsp was 6th place.|
by guddu on 08 March 2012 - 01:18
I dont want to speak for Ibrahim, but with my limited knowledge Erri is a total outcross.http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=637853
by GSDPACK on 08 March 2012 - 01:26
|What I said has nothing to do with Ibrahim's dog, Erri did not work out, well it happens. He will be a great dog for somebody else. Just because one person could not utilize a dog, does not mean that another would not be happy with the dog as he was.|
Simple as that. One person wants oranges another apples...
I don't know the female to his former male so I will not make any comments on a dog I don't know.
I am only responding to your question to point out the reputable breeders with cheaper puppies, they are out there. The thing is those breeders have access to stud dogs that are starting to kind show what they are made out of, they are not "legendary" yet or if they don't get heavily advertised, they will never be "legendary".
Before the Legendary dog emerges, the puppies out of the same stud in a prior year were not a new obsession of the masses who had the stud dog thrown at them in every possible direction so he could be noticed. That means that they were not as wanted, therefore cheaper! Then suddenly a dog becomes "legendary" and the prices go up. Simple as that....
OP sorry and good luck with finding the info you are looking for...
by Mike Johnson on 08 March 2012 - 02:53
|We can only hope that Ibrahim's dog with such a mellow personality will replace the shy, cowering dogs that to many people breed because they are "papered". Now, its definately a different purpose, but those genes are much better than the typical pet grade dogs used and if the temperment is there for a pet.....the breed would be better off.|
by guddu on 18 March 2012 - 19:53
Another Ox progeny, 9 weeks
by judron55 on 19 March 2012 - 12:36
|People in Czech don't do Legendary, they do breedings to a dog that will produce well with the bitch they have.|
This is a list of Czech breedings in the last 3 months...now, I know this isn't all, but, that statement above seems pretty ambiguious considering the facts:-) I'd say they are bringing in West German lines by the boatload. And going to winners (hopefully producers)By the way Sorbon Majoruv haj who seems to be getting a lot of breedings is a Ängsbacken's Rosso son:-) Vikar is breeding a number of his bitches to Rosso:-)
by Ace952 on 19 March 2012 - 16:19
From what I am coming across, I certainly agree with you. Here in the states, it seems like we use the terms "legendary", "the great" & 50 other adjectives to descibe dogs coming from the czech republic. To the new person you would have thought these dogs walked with Jesus, personally kept a country in control while playing poker.
Talk with breeders in the czech you do hear a different story. You hear that some while some well known dogs were very good, they weren't at "God-like" as they are perceived over here. With some dogs you hear the exact opposite. Some dogs which people brag about is in their dogs pedigree or linebred on, you find out are avoided in their home country.
I have noticed MANY using WGWL is their breedings. I agree that those breeders try to find the best dog possible to use in their breeding. Now again there are some that will breed just because of the name as they will sell pups but as with everything in life, it doesn't mean that everyone does it. I am guessing that they are trying to widen the genepool with dogs that have godo pedigrees and work well to help stregthen their breeding program.
by GSDPACK on 19 March 2012 - 19:16
|Name that shows results sells. Yes kennels are bringing in the lines that not only sell but also show results. I like what they are doing, bringing larger genetic pool to the game. But still lets face it, some breeders still breed a dog, not a name. At least the ones I know. They like the dog, match the pedigree and hope for the best. Some work nicely some don't.|
I think we will see some bad outcomes from these breeding combos and some really good ones (just like with everythin else). But it takes couple of generations to really see what the line, outcross or line breeding really is showing by consistency in the dogs.
Hope I make sence. If not then oh well...
There are some really good dogs out there that get overlooked. I still hope people will not limit themselves to only names. But I understand wy they do, again name sells te puppies.
There is use and need for many type of dogs, not just superior sport animals, but also for the lower drive/energy solid dogs that can be utilized for other purposes.