German Shepherd Dog > Experiences from breeding showlines with working lines (158 replies)
by Blitzen on 04 March 2012 - 03:53
|No, that was probably Petra's dog, Oprah. A big doggy bitch? The bitch I'm talking about was handled by a thin gal with dark hair. Maybe she didn't show, I heard she was entered.|
Sorry I missed you!!
by vomeisenhaus on 04 March 2012 - 04:14
|Yeah the thin young ladys dog was a litte "FIREBALL". Lol. She did a nice job. Dog was very enthusiastic about the work. Them 2 will have fun together for along time in the future. The older guys wl dog did very well. I give that guy "A LOT OF CREDIT" for getting that dog where he is. That is not easily done. I had some inside informationon on that dog. He was so nasty the cops didn't want him....lol|
by Blitzen on 04 March 2012 - 05:09
|Wasn't she a fireball? I told her owner I wanted to steal her.|
I didn't realize the older gentleman's dog was such a handful although he was a bit "vocal" lol. He sure did a great job with him. Don't you just love it when owner handlers do so well with their dogs? They are my inspiration!
by darylehret on 04 March 2012 - 09:47
|Do you two have to have this conversation here?|
by johan77 on 04 March 2012 - 10:43
|The workingdogs are closer to the standard in conformation, that they are not what wins in shows is another story. If endurance and a healthy structure is what showdogs are supposed to add, why did the old herdingdogs look so different, and basically all breeds us looked for performance. Just look at a wolf foor example, do it need a human judgement to say it has wrong structure for a perfomance animal?|
by Rik on 04 March 2012 - 12:28
|daryl, is that really you trying to keep a thread on topic. somebody done stole the boy's password.|
I think Kevin touched at the heart of the matter as I see it. He has a very good example of a s/l proving itself, yet he doesn't expect the dog to be widely used because of his placings. Whose fault is this. certainly not the dog. If a strong protection test was required for placings, then dogs like his would undoubtly be higher. and I think there would be less divergence between the factions.
by Blitzen on 04 March 2012 - 12:53
|Aw geez, Daryl. So sorry. I promise to never do that again.|
A terrible shock, you knock my mock.
What a crock, can't turn back the clock, take it to the chopping block, outlined in chalk.
Before the boat doth rock, or this thread does lock, by a puppet sock, I'm gonna TAKE THAT WALK!
Is that more in keeping with the subject line?
by Blitzen on 04 March 2012 - 12:58
Has the protection test itself become easier over the years or is it the way it is conducted and/or scored?
by joanro on 04 March 2012 - 13:00
|Johan, you need to look to the judges. In all dog shows the judges say who is "correct". A trend is set and if a little bit will do, a lot will do better. That's how breeds become distorted and beyond functionality. If you want to see how ALL domestic animals have become distorted, look at their wild counterpart. The border collie people are having the same problem in their breed because of DOG SHOWS, which in my opinion are the bane of all breeds, even cats are detrimentally affected by cat shows. Trotting is important for herding dogs, but not the exaggerated gait you see in theGSD show ring. That gait will wear a dog out who's trying to work sheep in rough, rocky terrain. I have a WL female that has tremendous natural herding behavior. She will trot for miles and never tire, off lead. Then when we are about two hundred yards from the goat herd, she gets into a half stalking crouch and trots up to the herd, never taking her eyes from them. Puts one in mind of a lioness locked onto her prey trotting up in low profile before the final explosion of speed for the capture! It's breathtaking to watch this female, and she does it EVERY DAY. Never gets to old to watch. And this female has as "normal" conformation you'll ever see on a GSD.|
by Rik on 04 March 2012 - 13:05
|Blitzen, I'm talking about the test at the shows, which is pass/fail, not scored as dogs already have titles. When you see what is allowed to pass it will answer your questions.|
by Blitzen on 04 March 2012 - 13:27
|I'm thinking of the protection work done at shows. The first time I saw that at NASS I didn't understand how one dog could receive the same verbal rating from the judge as one that did much better (or worse). Going back for another bite, nibbling on the sleeve, etc.. I do understand it's pass or fail, but aren't there different degrees of passing? I don't speak much German, so don't remember the wording but some "passing dogs" receive a better rating than others, don't they? Pronounced? Adequate?|
I agree with whoever said workinglines seem to better fit the phenotype of the foundation dogs judging by their photos. One of my favorite dogs was Graff's Eagle, a beautiful dog with a terrific temperament. I see photos here of workinglines I would consider sound and athletic looking judging by their photos. Daryl posted a photo to another thread of a really nice looking bitch he bred that is doing some herding.
by Kevin Nance on 04 March 2012 - 13:41
|RIk said, "When you see what is allowed to pass it will answer your questions." Indeed; and, unfortunately meaningful change in required performance for showlines will not be forthcoming as entrenched interests will ultimately derail these efforts on any meaningful scale.. We have many examples of poorly tempered working lines as well; the difference is they are typically not promoted for breeding en masse. Kevin Nance|
by darylehret on 04 March 2012 - 14:48
Consistent and unwarranted aggression is NOT proper temperament for a german shepherd. You definitely need to see more workingline dogs, or find out what it is about you they don't like. "Too much dog" sounds like the result of extreme breeding.
by darylehret on 04 March 2012 - 14:58
|Here's a copy of the first english published translation of the GSD standard.|
by Blitzen on 04 March 2012 - 15:19
|They didn't direct their aggression at me, Daryl. Why would you even say something like that?|
Maybe we all need to look at more examples of specific lines before dismissing them?
by Gustav on 04 March 2012 - 15:28
|I see hundreds of workinglines, and quite frankly most of them are lacking in outward aggression. Not saying unwarranted aggression, but far too many of WL today are dogs that will come up to anybody and if you throw a ball for them they will get it for you. Blitzen, I'm sorry, but its rare that I see a WL dog these days with outward/inward aggression......very infrequently.....I actually see MORE SL dogs with outward aggression then WL, but unfortunately it usually is result of thin nerves. I'm not sure I would form an opinion on that limited amount of examples, because I think it might not reflect the norm. Just an opinion...not a criticism.|
by Blitzen on 04 March 2012 - 15:39
I did say I've seen a limited number of workinglines, Gustav. I did not say that my limited experience has qualified me to make a blanket statement that "all workingline dogs are aggressive". I know what I saw and I also know that poorly bred workinglines are not representative of the dogs that are bred by breeders such as yourself. In fact I'll expand that statement to cover showline dogs too. Not all have roach backs and frog rears and freak out at the slightest noise. Generalizations are never a good way to pass judgement on every dog.
by joanro on 04 March 2012 - 15:39
|Blitzen, could you describe how the aggression is expressed and what are the dogs directing it towards?|
by Blitzen on 04 March 2012 - 15:46
1. Dogs that lung and bark at the end of the lead at every person who passes near them.
by joanro on 04 March 2012 - 15:57
|Thank you for the examples. Those all sound like training issues to me, not aggression issues.|