German Shepherd Dog > Experiences from breeding showlines with working lines (158 replies)
by Red Sable on 04 March 2012 - 00:31
|I guess what subjects like this do, is give us an idea of those breeders who agree with our ideas on the correct GSD, so hopefully, if someone is going to buy a pup, they have an idea of who to talk to about it.|
by Ibrahim on 04 March 2012 - 00:40
|RS, you are always a voice of wisdom though I know if I breed you won't buy from me|
by joanro on 04 March 2012 - 00:47
|In very distant past they shared the same genes. At the present they are divergent through, as Daryl said, selective breeding. When the breed was started, dogs of "similar" type were used to create one breed. The two lines now are more different than the breeds used originally. The border collie and Australian shepherd are an example of similar type, more so than the two gsd lines. This will be debated, I'm sure.|
by Ibrahim on 04 March 2012 - 00:54
I don't have a scientific reply to your claim but I don't think it is true. Applying simple logic, what you and Daryl are saying is way off comprehension though I don't claim I understand genetics as much as Daryl dos and maybe not as much as you do too !!!
by vomeisenhaus on 04 March 2012 - 01:10
|I believe steve miller in wisc. has done some show/work crossing & liked what he got. I met him briefly at a mutual friends house in fla. That was in the mid 90's though when we had this discussion. Ibrahim- do you think the correct structure / trot of todays sl dogs gives them more endurance? IMO the most structurally sound dog with the most endurance I ever had was SchH 3 kkl2 FELS VON. DER SCHOPF. Very straight back leggy dog of 65cm. The pics of old gsd's IMO look like a robust malinois and I wouldn't doubt if both breeds derived from some of the same founding dogs as well as the dutch shepherd. I'm a wl entthusiast myself but I won't go bashing anyones preferance as I have seen some nice working sl's in my day. Ps. Blitzen.... I was at the trial in groveland last night as a spectator.I don't know you but was wondering if you were there. It was a nice turnout. Once again though if one wants to talk to someone who has probably more experience in both working and showlines than anyone on this board I would give steve miller a call in wisconsin. Kurt|
by joanro on 04 March 2012 - 01:12
|Selective breeding is what has created the different breeds of dogs, even when they start out as the same. Look at a show line dog next to a work line dog, surely you can see the difference. Now look at whippet next to a greyhound (racing, not show), and other than size, they are more similar than the two GSDs, but they are two different breeds. In fact, I have seen small racing dogs and large whippet that were indistinguishable.|
by Ibrahim on 04 March 2012 - 01:18
|This last post I understand (selective breeding created different breeds).|
What I don't understand is saying by selective breeding from different/various types of dogs the Captain created a single breed i.e the GSD and yet saying we can't do the same now and recreate one breed one GSD from both the show and work.
by Ibrahim on 04 March 2012 - 01:43
I can accept to have several opinions on what the correct structure of the GSD is, some think the current fad of extremely angulated GSD, some think the straight level back that is moderately angulated etc, but what we should not disagree on is the importance of efficient trot and correct structure for a GSD so it can perform. To claim that structure or trot is of no use and value and or to dismiss these two points from being major part of the breed standard and no need to take them into account and or to not select breed for them is what I think is wrong and not in accord with the breed standard.
Personally I like a GSD with beautiful structure, correctly angulated but not overly done, of strong temperament, reliable, protects its family. If the correct GSD should look like a malinois then maybe I am in the wrong breed, no offense here, I won't lie and say I don't care about the looks, I love what the GSD looks like, work or show, to me the noble look is there in both, no matter what Daryl says they're so different, I see they are one, in a black and white picture they are identical in expression and both think they are noble.
by joanro on 04 March 2012 - 01:48
|The best way to explain is this: The " Captain" and his few cohorts had a cohesive ideal and those few men made the selections for breeding to create the gsd from similar but different breeds. To try to combine, after many generations of separation through selective breeding the two types of gsd would mean hundreds or even thousands of breeders are going to be selecting. Therefore, the cohesiveness of ideal is not there. And the other very important issue at hand is that there is a reason the gsd has become divergent; aesthetic beauty for some and utilitarian use for others. Everyone would have to have the same ideal for the two lines to become one. Not likely to happen.|
by Kevin Nance on 04 March 2012 - 01:49
|I have followed this thread with great interest. I currently work a Showline who is the first in UScA history to SG all three phases at the National level. He is not a "podium" level dog but solidly in the next tier as a working dog finishing 23rd at last year's Nationals with a 92 protection score; full, hard grips, handles the pressure phase very well, and excellent drive transition. Yet, there is nowhere to breed this temperament forward among the Showlines; his "relatively low" V9 Sieger show status assures that. We indeed do and will continue to have "two breeds" sharing the same name going forward. And, within that, to each their respective own.... Kevin Nance|
by vomeisenhaus on 04 March 2012 - 02:03
|Ibrahim... it is a matter of politics and preferances of individuallikes & dislikes. "IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN". The breeds father country and organization don't want it to happen and I truly belive many of the "great breeders" on both sides of the fence don't want it happen because if it did they wouldn't be able to charge such high prices for their puppies ibrahim. One group bashing the other is also a marketing thing. From the working standpoint if every gsd out their was psd/high level competition material no one would need to go to these (specialized kennels) to purchase a puppies. Ie... no more high prices as the dogs down the road are as good as the dogs cross country or across the pond. Kurt|
by darylehret on 04 March 2012 - 02:29
|Excellent explanations joanro, and so true about specialization, Kurt. People looking for the "hardest dog", the "darkest sable", etc. are all forms of selection pressures that breeder's can succumb to. There could potentially be some breeders producing "for marketability" or some for their "personal preference", but if it weren't for one or the other or both, there'd be no reason for anyone to breed, I'd imagine.|
Show and work are not "only" names, they are an accumulation of selection pressures over the span of generations. Max would not have intended to select from dogs that had no valuable contribution to his intended results. No founding producer that he utilized to my awareness had a roached back or slunken hips, and he was even moreso particular about a dog's temperament and character.
These characteristics that we have come to know as showline type were developed progressively through generations and then became fixed within their genepool. Not from an outside source, but from mutation and selection. Max didn't throw in something off the wall of his plans like a saluki for the heck of it, he selected from a variety of dogs that had more in common with each other than our split breed does today, from a looser-kept shepherd dog "type" which was present for centuries before our breed ever had a namesake.
by MVF on 04 March 2012 - 02:50
|It is not possible to create a single genetic profile capable of doing the variety of important and disparate tasks assigned to gsd's. It is naive to think that one could create a dog that could successfully perform on the Schutzhund field AND being a disciplined, steady guide dog for the blind, much less a dog who tends sheep, or one who competes actively in AKC obedience and/or agility and needs uber-sociality. |
I don't see the need for show conformation (except the structural qualities that make a dog healthy and physically capable until he is 10 years old or more), although I don't object to it per se, but I surely don't see the need to compress the gene pool so that the ONLY thing the breed can do is Schutzhund, for example. Why? The breed genetic profile is broad enough to do many important jobs, but only if dogs continue to be bred in varieties, as they are.
When people worry that their breeds have split into show and work, I think they are right to worry that the power of the showlines people will dilute the quality of the breed. But in the case of our breed, we have many WORKING varieties, and those should be cherished and maintained IMO.
by joanro on 04 March 2012 - 02:55
|Daryl, your on the mark again. I see more and more breeders of work dogs breeding for and touting " deep red sable" , or " black sable" or what ever other shade of sable is the color of the week. The temperament is often overlooked or ignored in preference for shades of color. And "huge heads" , never mind that short legs usually accompany huge heads. The GSD is supposed to be a dog with NO extremes, of anything including drives. When people call and specify what shade color they want, I tell them I don't breed for color, but perhaps the pup that would fit them might also be the color they like. If color is more important to them than the whole dog, I suggest they look elsewhere. It is ultimately up to the breeders to maintain the integrity of the breed instead of just producing what is the current fad. Fads are dynamic and unpredictable, therefore detrimental to any dog breed.|
by joanro on 04 March 2012 - 02:59
|Good post MVF.|
by Kevin Nance on 04 March 2012 - 03:03
|MVF, I wholeheartedly agree. We have a defined standard as a baseline. But, from within that pool it is then encumbent upon the prospective owner to accomplish due diligence to ensure the selection meets their needs. Caveat emptor, but with the right contacts, access, and ability to accurately evaluate, lines exist that can meet almost any individual preferences. Kevin Nance|
by MVF on 04 March 2012 - 03:18
|Joanro and Kevin - great. I agree in turn with your annoyance with the "color" enthusiasts (Joanro) and with the caveat (Kevin).|
As to the caveat: ultimately, the genetics of breeding is a complex game of chance with 1000-sided dice. If people tell you they know precisely what they are going to get, they are misinformed themselves or misinforming their puppy buyers.
Ultimately, however, if you want a dog who can do something that none of his parents or grandparents could do, you are playing a long shot. Long-winded discussions of the genius of the breeding plan aimed at bringing to the surface talents that have not been in evidence in generations are just marketing. Puppy buyers are also often inclined to want something they can't afford, so they engage in wishful thinking with the breeder.
If both parents and all four grandparents did it well enough for you, you are taking a good bet. If everyone just bought a dog because they'd be happy to have any dog in the pedigree going back a few generations, we'd all be better off IMO. As a good pedigree is going to be subject to regression to the mean -- the average pup will not be as good as the average of two very good parents -- this is the least we can do.
In my case, I do care about scores, so I don't want a dog whose ancestors loafed through their titles in a red glow. But as Kevin says, caveat emptor.
by Blitzen on 04 March 2012 - 03:18
VomEisenhaus, I was planning to go but came down with a bad cold and sore throat, so didn't make it. Some of the people I train with were entered, so I hated to miss it. Did your see that little powerhouse GSL female trialing for her IPO2? I just love that dog and her handler is a wonderful lady. There were 2 really outstanding WL's at our show too, one HOT by an older gentleman, who was just busting at the seams when his dog qualified for his IPO2 (I think). Another great WL was handled by a young woman. He was HIT at our show with a near perfect score. My dog was the only AKC CH at the trial but we had fun .
by joanro on 04 March 2012 - 03:26
|Moving forward, not backward is the only possibility.|
by vomeisenhaus on 04 March 2012 - 03:46
|Blitzen.... I was there for the whole ob/protection. The female showline you speak of was she owned. And or handled by a german woman?|