German Shepherd Dog > Experiences from breeding showlines with working lines (158 replies)
by Preston on 01 March 2012 - 19:00
|Crossing WL and SL SV GSDs is not easily done successfully. Arlett Kennels is one of the few that has done this successfully. It is important to note that Ms. Van Dorssen always keeps a parallel sable line of top producing bitches to breed back in for vitality and desired, hard to get traits. The key is having a top producing bitch that has a proven track record. Arlett kennels has a long track record of success in crossing WL and SL and is one of the few kennels to do so.|
Silbersee is another one of the very few to have done so and has a most impressive top producing bitch, V Chuckie vom Schloss Laer, undoubtedly one of the greatest import bitches ever in the USA. She has produced notably correct to the FCI/SV standard GSDs, eg GSDs like V Hutch von der Kalten Hardt, one of her most cotrrect. This IS the ideal GSD that was so common in Germany in the 1970's and this IS the ideal GSD to breed for in mind and body.
For the average GSD breeder to try to crosss WL and SL import bloodlines is a true long shot that typically would require at least several generations of careful selection and help from a very knowledgable expert, perhaps a breed warden.
Silbersee is the exception, and has overcome these most difficult barriers to obtaining quality WL and SL crosses, proving to have the knowledge and experience to do this. Examine what this kennel has produced. It is most impressive and it is long term, not a lucky flash in the pan. The key is always being able to acquire a top producing bitch, and Silbersee has them. And then to breed these bitches to rock solid correct producing males that have strong WL roots. Done correctly you get the best GSDs possible, dogs that Captain von Stephanitz would have strongly approved of.
Silbersee has done it and is one of the few breeders anywhere to do so and end up with a GSD with correct physical conformation and correct working temperament.
by Ibrahim on 01 March 2012 - 19:23
|to Silbersee & Arlett|
by ziegenfarm on 01 March 2012 - 20:10
|the most, absolutely most important thing to keep in mind when crossing the two is to keep solid nerves at the core of the|
breeding! i cannot stress this enough. nobody wants a high drive dog with low thresholds and weak nerves. throw in some
sharpness & aggression & you have a receipe for failure. it can be done----not easy---but doable. solid nerves, solid nerves,
solid nerves. i'm dead serious!
by Runag on 01 March 2012 - 23:04
I am a newbie here but from asking about my dogs bloodlines on the forum, and the comments i got back, it would appear that my pup is mostly show on the sire with a mix of show and work on the dam. He has a fantastic temperament and nerves of steel. I am training with him for working dog trials so will let you know how he gets on. We have our own sheep and is showing an interest in them but my other half isn't keen on letting him loose in case he just wants to eat them
by CMathis on 02 March 2012 - 00:56
I agree this is doable but only if good specimens of work and show lines are used. To me it is ridiculous to expect the working dog to totally make up for lack of temperment and drive or the show dog to make up for every conformation fault that the work dog exibits.
For myself I am willing not to place that well in the show ring if that is what it takes to get a dog that will really work. The GSD is supposed to be all about excellent temperment, nerves, and drives with conformation being secondary.
by wrestleman on 02 March 2012 - 01:41
|I heard this question ask in Germany to some very well respected breeders and trainers at a club and they all answered with: "You get the worst of both 99% of the time not the opposite, Better to keep working dogs as working dogs and let the others do what they wish, but to mix is a disaster' Helmut Riser also anwered this but in a much stroner way|
by aaykay on 02 March 2012 - 03:07
Vomtreuenhaus: It sucks that the breed is so divided, but it is what it is. Border Collies have the same issues and arguments as we all do with GSDs.
The couch potato "Conformation Labradors" being the equivalent of the showline GSD (all show and pretty much nothing else) and the Field Labradors being the equivalent of the working line GSD.
by cphudson on 02 March 2012 - 04:19
| Hutch von der Kalten Hardt is a very beautiful dog & must of been just as nice worker too. But isn't he out of all WL's?|
WL's are still close to the breed standard, & if they are not it won't take breeders long to improve the structure to the GSD written standard.
The written standard for structure & temperament is closely represented by well bred WL's. Some WL's do need improvement in structure or more balanced drives, but both can be
corrected by breeding to the large selections of V-rated / correct structure WL dogs or WL dogs with balanced structure. The WL's will only take 2-3 generations to improve the breed back
to matching the breed standard. You see majority of WL's prized for both structure & work ability now. See this thread; http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/German_shepherd_dog/forum.read?mnr=155627
Choice almost all the dogs listed on the thread are from WL's.
I don't see the benefit for large numbers of WL's to start to mix with SL's to correct structure, when most SL's structure are not adhering to the written GSD standard.
Do agree that SL's should be highly encourage to mix with WL's to help improve structure, nerve, work ability, & over all health. Both lines should stride to meet the written standard in
structure & temperament. The written standard will promote a correct working structure that will be beautiful to see in it's natural functionality & correct temperament.
Most hunting breeds that are divided into hunting lines or shows line are not inter mixed by hunting line breeders. They don't want to loose the work ability of their offspring by mixing with show lines.
But many SL breeders will add in a HL dog to their breeding program every few generations to help add vigor & drives back in. HL's are widely used for detection work around the world / hunting / field trails.
Most people are now perfectly happy over the split. Pet people majority seek out SL's for their laid back nature.
The GSD can go along the same route as hunting breeds or both lines can focus on breeding to meet the the standard instead of fade of the time.
by joanro on 02 March 2012 - 12:42
|I said it before and I'll say it again: these are two separate breeds now. Mixing them would not help either one. For the working lines, crossing the two, would be like trying to "improve" RACING greyhounds' looks by crossing in show greyhounds. You'd end up with dogs that couldn't get out of their own way,instead of of dogs that run like a cheetah! A friend of mine said of the SL , they need to start over 'cause there's no fixin' them!|
by Gustav on 02 March 2012 - 13:32
|I think that Chris and Joe Stump, (Silbersee) have also had the advantage of a close relationship with Gerd Dexel of vom Haus Dexel. Some of you may remember Ajax vom Haus Dexel, a dog from the past that also embodied the greatness of the breed in all respects including producing total dogs.|
by Ibrahim on 02 March 2012 - 16:29
by EisenFaust on 02 March 2012 - 17:13
|when we talk about mixing the two sh/wk are we talking about color? the reason why I say this is because their are tons of V-rated KKL1 working dogs that have drive structure looks and hardness. So are we trying to get dogs with the red and black saddle? Just wondering.|
by Silbersee on 02 March 2012 - 20:24
|cphudson, to clarify: We mentioned Hutch becasue he is out of my female Chuckie. Hutch is a nice dog, and so is his brother Hudson. If memory serves correctly, both were imported to the U.S. and I would encourage any WL-breeder to use them as stud. Hudson stayed with Gary Hanrahan for a while and he was not an easy dog to handle. His owner and keeper had their hands full with him. Hutch is different, also a great family companion. Both went to the BSP in Germany. Their full younger sister (repeat breeding) Iffy von der Kalten Hardt also went to the BSP with her co-owner.|
My Chuckie produced 3 offspring that participated in the BSP and lots of V-rated sons and daughters. That IMO makes her an extremely valuable female. That is why Preston mentions her too (thanks Preston).
It is important to have a great female line, regardless of workinglines or showlines! As a matter of fact, no kennel will ever be successful without top producing females.
Gustav, you are right. The Dexel family have been our friends and mentors for many years. We think like them and have the same philosophy. Ajax was around when Gerd was a baby. It was Gerd's father Richard who mentored us first and even taught Joe how to best tattoo puppies and me how to evaluate. He has passed away a couple of years ago and I still miss his valuable opinions.
Gerd is just the best dog person around. He has campaigned dogs to World Sieger (Gina vom Aquamarin) and Vice World Sieger (Timo vom Berrekasten) in the show world and turns around and competes at the Schutzhund field. He went to the LGA but missed the qualification for the BSP by a few points. His wife Petra made it, though and competed at the BSP. The year my Chuckie was bred, Gerd had her for a few weeks. A couple of days after she was bred he spontaneously decided to compete with her at a SchH trophy tournament and they won it, beating other breeds like Malinois as well. Judge was Heiko Grube.
These are the people who should be looked up to, as they are truly versatile and living proof that it is possible to "play" both sides.
For the people who think that a wellbred workingline is so much different than a showline (not the overangulated ones), please look at my homebred dogs out of my Chuckie, not much of a difference. Our black male Onyx even beat a couple of showlines in the show ring. Our female Uschi was shown recently in Germany and also did not end up last in her class. The big difference is still that the ratio of well structured puppies in workingline breedings is very low while the showline breeders almost always have great prospects in their litters. As a breeder in Germany calls it: the showlines are (genetically) "bred through" or "refined" (which means their phenotype is so established that there are no more guessing games). And to clarify: I am not talking about drives and temperament here, only "looks".
by darylehret on 02 March 2012 - 20:30
|I know which set of characteristics I'd rather be playing guessing games with.|
by joanro on 02 March 2012 - 20:40
|You and me , both, Daryl. I " guess" it all depends on what a person considers what " well structured" is. To me, well structured is a dog that doesn't look like he has weights hanging from his testicles. He stands UP, not down, in the rear.|
by Red Sable on 02 March 2012 - 21:02
|"You and me , both, Daryl. I " guess" it all depends on what a person considers what " well structured" is. To me, well structured is a dog that doesn't look like he has weights hanging from his testicles. He stands UP, not down, in the rear."|
LOL, again, I agree. :)
by Silbersee on 02 March 2012 - 21:07
|Hey darylehret, I knew this would draw comments like yours. And that is why I tried to emphasize on structure by using words like phenotype and looks. It is ok though to disagree. Our breed would really be in trouble if we all had the same (tunnel) vision. Have a great weekend and cheers.|
by Blitzen on 02 March 2012 - 22:34
Some talk the talk, some walk the walk.
Are you going to Statesville?
by Silbersee on 03 March 2012 - 00:37
|Hi Blitzen, unfortunately not. I have no dog prepared to be shown and no babysitter for my son. If it was closer... Are you going?|
by aceofspades on 03 March 2012 - 00:44
|My almost 2 year old female is a SL/WL. Sire is a KKl1 Sch3 showline. I don't know much about the mix, but my girl is a great dog and full of P&V. She keeps me on my toes.|