German Shepherd Dog > Buyer Beware - DM information (42 replies)
by GSD2727 on 20 February 2012 - 03:27
|Well yes I do agree that people should be honest. Should not be saying the puppies WILL BE CLEAR if you do not know the status of both parents. So I do agree with that!|
by leoetta on 20 February 2012 - 03:38
|Here's a question I plan on asking OFA, why they will no longer accept the test results for DM of other labs like vetdnacenter.com. The Univ. of Missouri website claims they have a patent on the test etc. I have contacted vetdnacenter and they have said that to their knowledge there is no known patent and that they are sure their lawyers or UM's lawyers would have contacted them. They use the same test, so why does OFA only accept UM's test. They list vetdnacenter.com on the OFA website for other tests they have available. I paid the extra $15 almost two years ago now and sent Zamp's vetdnacenter.com DM test results to OFA and got his OFA certificate, but they would not do it a month later with my next dog. It would be nice to have a complete database of results but it seems UM or OFA is standing in the way of that. I for one like to use vetdnacenter.com as I usually will run the coat length test at the same time for an extra $20. And I'm a bit of a loyalist, and a little stubborn, it bugs me that OFA changed their tune on this a year and a half ago which makes me want to use them for DM even less LOL. I haven't pressed it since then with OFA but am going to put in a phone call and follow up with a letter if necessary. What are your thoughts on this, is it purely a $$ thing? I find the part I highlighted below a bit hard to believe for one, maybe it's true but I'm thinking OFA must get a majority of the testing fee then.|
Here is the quote from the UM website that is linked to from OFA regarding the patent: http://www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/DM/sampleDM.htm
Laboratories DNA Testing for DM
Please be aware that the discovery of the mutation causing DM in dogs and the subsequent DNA test has been patented by those who discovered the mutation - the University of Missouri and the Broad Institute at Harvard/MIT. The ONLY authorized license to offer this test is the partnership with OFA, described above. Any other laboratory or entity that may be offering the DNA test for DM is in violation of a patent. Accuracy or validity of test results by other independent labs cannot be verified, and will not be recorded by OFA or CHIC on their searchable public database for disease testing results. In addition, any funds received by the Animal Molecular Genetics Laboratory at the University of Missouri that may be in excess of expenses to run the test are used to fund additional research searching for disease-causing mutations in many breeds of dogs. No individual at AMGL or OFA receives personal profit from testing fees received. We appreciate your support and participation in past and ongoing research!
by trixx on 20 February 2012 - 05:22
|i know if i was to breed say a DM carrier to a DM clear i would get the whole litter tested so i would know which went to pet homes and which could go to breeders. as i would not trust half these breeders out there that would never test there dogs.i know alot of breeders that know about DM test but dont think any of there dogs have DM, which is pretty sad.|
by Blitzen on 20 February 2012 - 13:45
|I have the same questions, Barbie, plus I have never received an answer to these questions - why did OFA remove the results of the Flash test from their database since it was not the same test? Is the Flash test still available? If not, why not? I do know of at least one dog that was tested using both the Flash test and the OFA test. The owner was told that the Flash test indicated the dog had an active case of DM, the OFA test identifed him as a carrier.The dog was 2 years old at the time and suffered from some spinal and hip issues that were surgically corrected. 3 years later he is much improved. Also is DM or is it not an animal model for ALS? |
I certainly hope this is not about politics and jockeying for position.
by Blitzen on 20 February 2012 - 13:49
|Exactly, Trixx. I agree.|
by marjorie on 26 February 2012 - 05:39
|--- > I believe she uses the wording DM free because the puppies will never get DM therefore they are DM free technically|
NEVER get DM? The puppies will never get DM? Would you please show me studies where the progeny of N/N dogs have been followed up for several generations to make the above statement a FACT? Can you also show me proof that the only thing that causes GSDM is a change to the SOD1 gene? Thats weird because only 2 % of people with ALS have a change to their SOD1 gene. Last but not least, DM is not a motor unit disease in GSDS. They dont feel their feet, which they do in a motor unit disease. All breeds get a degeneration of the spine which is chronic and progressive, but this does not make that disease GSDM.
by marjorie on 26 February 2012 - 18:22
|Which breeder has puppies that will never develop DM? His/her name, please? I have had 2 dogs with DM and would love to know which breeder has puppies that will never develop DM.|
by SitasMom on 27 February 2012 - 05:50
|There is long term DM a study underway. I donated blood from one of my shepherds 3 years ago, every year they ask her status.|
by Blitzen on 27 February 2012 - 12:49
|Thanks, Sita's Mom. I didn't know that.|
Marj, when I started this thread it was regarding a for sale ad that advertised "DM free puppies"with only one tested parent. That was later explained away by a friend of the breeder of that litter who felt that it was truth in advertising since the sire tested as an nn normal so could not produce an at risk regardless of the status of the dam. She later revised that ad to reflect the fact that she sells every dog she breeds with limited registration so they are never bred.
by marjorie on 27 February 2012 - 16:01
|Limited registration has nothing to do with advertising DM free lines. Just because a person isnt going to breed a dog doesnt make a difference. What about a pet owner who might get their heart broken and foot the tremendous bill for DM and all it entails? That doesnt count? Advertising DM free lines and puppies is deceptive.There have been no long term studies done to prove this is, indeed, the truth! Even Dr Coates is still looking for additional genes that contribute to the development of DM. If the SOD1 was the sole cause, she wouldnt be looking down new avenues. I cannot fault her for people advertising deceptively, although that is one of the dangers of making premature statements in relation to the future. There is no proof that a puppy will or will not develop DM, at this stage of the game. Maybe in 15 years we will know for sure, but certainly not at this time! The definition of a fraudulent representation is one is which the party making the statement was aware that it is false or disregards the possibility of it being false. With all the discussion of the SOD1 validity, and dogs testing clear developing and dying from DM, one would be hard pressed to not know the possibility that this test might not be correct or definitive.|
by BlackthornGSD on 27 February 2012 - 16:42
|advertised "DM free puppies"with only one tested parent. That was later explained away by a friend of the breeder of that litter who felt that it was truth in advertising since the sire tested as an nn normal so could not produce an at risk regardless of the status of the dam. |
How is this not true?
Or are you going with the idea that the DNA test is not conclusive?
by leoetta on 27 February 2012 - 17:34
|marjorie---"Advertising DM free lines and puppies is deceptive."---|
marjorie---"The definition of a fraudulent representation is one is which the party making the statement was aware that it is false or disregards the possibility of it being false."----
First of all my friend nor myself are in no way deceiving nor trying to deceive anyone by testing our dogs and advertising them as such. I test my females as well which is why I say the puppies are DM Clear because the parents are tested Clear, I sell with breeding rights so my females need to be tested. My friend does also have this as part of her ad to try and explain (see the portion I highlighted below), because no we don't truly know what the future may hold except for what the current research tells us and that is all we can go by right now, and that is what most breeders are going by right now. Both her customers as well as mine are all told this information regarding the current research. Most of those that contact me because I test my dogs are up on the current research because they've recently lost a dog due to dm. They are looking for people that are testing their dogs and that is what we are doing. You on the other hand had better watch your words when you are accusing others of being fraudulent or deceptive without knowing anything about someone. You have no idea what we say in emails or over the phone to our clients or what information we give them in handouts, how we will spend two hours on the phone with a client talking about their dog they lost from DM if they are needing an ear to listen, and no it's not about making the sale so please don't go there, because usually those people are still not anywhere near ready for a new dog. The client sets the standard on what they are looking for in a breeder, they have a checklist in their mind and when you meet that checklist then you might be the breeder for them, we are not out there cold calling people and swindling them into buying a DM Free or Clear puppy and telling them 100% to never worry. Thankfully Marjorie it seems as though your opinion is not the majority here and I'm not sure exactly what your agenda is or what you are trying to promote, maybe it is all good and innocent, I don't have the time to read through every one of your posts though to find out. So for the time being I'd lay off the accusations when you really have no information regarding my friends nor my policies regarding DM and our clients and dogs. Nothing has been said about me here but I've put myself in the mix because I test and advertise DM Clear puppies, because that is what the testing and research says they are.
From my friends ad, and yes she has it in bold red letters on the ad ---"*(DM) Degenerative Myelopathy is an inherited debilitating spinal disease that occurs in German Shepherds and other breeds. Because Orian the sire of our litters has been DNA tested DM Clear meaning he does not carry any genes for DM and therefore, none of Orians offspring will ever be at risk for developing this tragic crippling disease according to the most current scientific research."
by Blitzen on 27 February 2012 - 18:04
I'm one who has faith in the UM DNA test. FWIW, it's good enough for me that puppies from one nn parent that are not intended for breeding be advertised as not being at risk for DM. I think the section above highlighted in red is a very honest representation of DM as it stands today and the status of a litter out of an nn parent. I wish I had said it first.
by Blitzen on 27 February 2012 - 18:07
|Sitas Mom, is there any need for anymore participants in that on going DM study?|
by marjorie on 27 February 2012 - 18:22
|--- >and I'm not sure exactly what your agenda is or what you are trying to promote, maybe it is all good and innocent, |
I have a dog in the advnced stages of DM...She is my second DM dog, so if you want to know my agenda, that is it, period, end. I dont want anyone else ot have to live through what I have lived through twice. I am not accusing anyone of fraud- I am giving the definition, legally, of fraudulent representation. i dont even know who your firiend is, so I am not directly accusing any particular person of fraud. However, there is a possibility that the information is incorrect, especially in the light of people having dogs that were declared clear, who have DM. Therefore, it is apparent that the possibility of dogs developing DM despite testing clear is a very real possiblity. One simply cannot igmore facts, and I dont care waht research says, if it is incorrect. If it was not incorrect, a clear dog wouldnt have been proven to had DM, upon necropsy.
by BlackthornGSD on 27 February 2012 - 19:06
|FWIW, it's good enough for me that puppies from one nn parent that are not intended for breeding be advertised as not being at risk for DM.|
Why should their potential breeding matter? Yes, they need to be tested before being bred. But they'll also need to get hip xrays and be evaluated for disqualifying faults and hopefully pass some sort of performance evaluation. You can't put all of that in a short advert--hopefully those things will be covered in future conversations with the breeder/advertiser.
It is tricky though, as to how to present the info publicly--because there is conflicting information out there and I think in 10 years, we will have significantly more information on what is really going on and what is valid.
I DNA tested knowing that there was some doubt as to the completeness of the current DNA test in diagnosing or predicting DM in GSDs. Maybe it only predicts one type of DM or it only indicates a propensity. No matter what, if used appropriately, it can only help improve the health of any puppies produced and the breed overall.
Additionally, I don't think that a healthy +/+ dog should automatically be removed from the breeding--if bred, though, he should only be bred to -/- dogs to make sure that he's not producing puppies with 2 copies of the gene and an increased likelihood of getting the disease. In the future, if more is known about what makes a dog go from "at risk" to "affected," there may be additional tests that will give more info--maybe these at risk but unaffected dogs actually have some valuable gene that prevents the disease from developing. Or maybe we'll find that in GSDs there's more than one gene involved--or a different one--and in that case, it would be foolish to have eliminated unaffected dogs who in fact had no risk of passing on the problem.
So, in conversations with puppy buyers, I tend to say, "The parents tested clear of the gene currently believed to be responsible for DM." But it's not like there's an easy explanation or an easy "yes/no," so I try to explain that this is based on current science and that this information may change as more research is done.
by Blitzen on 27 February 2012 - 19:19
|It would matter to me. If I wanted a dog for breeding, I would want both parents to be tested.|
I never have and never will advocate for any dog to be withdrawn from breeding due to its DNA DM status.
by Abby Normal on 27 February 2012 - 22:25
|At last some reason is beginning to emerge. There may be more work to be done to find an additional gene or a different gene or combination of genes. Further research has not and will not stop into DM, and so there is no good reason to stop using the current DM test. The more testing, the more data, the more data, the more results......a much bigger picture, which we just don't have now.|
by marjorie on 06 March 2012 - 06:03
|I have added a survey on my web site, as per suggestion, to be able to keep track of dogs that have had the OFA DM Test whose results have been contradicted by necrospy, carriers that have developed DM, or progeny of clear dogs who develop DM.The survey can be reached on the http://mzjf.com/test.html page of my website|
The direct link to the survey is http://www.mzjf.com/forms/form.cdform.php
I would much appreciate people cross posting so word can get out that information is being gathered as to the accuracy of the test in relation to the German Shepherd Dog. Thank you so much for the suggestion to keep track of tested dogs. I hope you will all help in publicizing this survey.
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group
by Abby Normal on 06 March 2012 - 09:30
I think this is the way to go to gather and collate as much data as possible. As I said above, the more testing that is done the more data will be available which will provide much more factual information as to what is happening. If you haven't added it, a section on the tests results of dogs that may subsequently be tested from clear parents (not just whether they go on to develop DM). You could encourage testing from clear dogs to confirm the results too.
People may not wish to, but some may agree to 'test the test'. A few years back in the UK, I think it was the Flatcoat retriever breeder club that did this following a gene test to eliminate a disease (sorry can't remember what it was), who tested litters and found that they were getting carriers from clears. The researchers then discovered a third 'wild' allele, which had until then remained hidden.
Let's keep it positive. Keep testing for DM and work with what we have whilst researching and collating what we see resulting from the current test. Meanwhile research is ongoing by a variety of organisations.