German Shepherd Dog > Buyer Beware - DM information (42 replies)
Buyer Beware - DM information
by Blitzen on 19 February 2012 - 00:59
BOTH parents need to be DNA tested for DM, not just the sire. It is not fair advertising to say that a litter is "DM free" based only on the NN status of the sire. The dam must be tested too. While a NN cannot produce an at risk, if bred to an at risk or to a carrier, there will be resulting carriers that can produce at risks.
by Emoore on 19 February 2012 - 01:11
|But if you're not planning to breed. . . . .?|
by Blitzen on 19 February 2012 - 01:27
LOL....No difference if you were looking for a pet that would not be bred.
by leoetta on 19 February 2012 - 01:30
I know the ad you are referring too, it is actually my friends ad. And you'll be happy to know that all of her puppies are sold on limited registration only and none of them will ever be bred. I believe she uses the wording DM free because the puppies will never get DM therefore they are DM free technically, but she does not use the word clear because that is how we refer to dogs that test n/n. Just wanting to clear things up a bit as I know her ad does not state limited registration only, but clients are made aware when they call or email. They can't even earn breeding rights, it is an unchangeable part of her contract. Thanks for listening :)
by oregontnt2007 on 19 February 2012 - 01:37
|I am so glad others are starting to test for DM, I lost my Tessa Vom Hidden Haus from DM at age 3,|
The my MACE's ODA is a DM carrier too, ODA is a Malinois!
My ODA is so sweet, I miss her so much. This little girl was such a lover, so kind & gentle.
For being a JASTA daughter, I really thought I would have my hands full after seeing somebody
making a name post about Jasta. I was a bit nervous really. When baby baby girl came to us sick & we made her better ( 3 tries for clearing up giarda ) I was so very much in love with her.
She is such a sweet girl!
If you learn about DM you will find out that it is in many breeds, OFA won't place Mali's on the DM list until they get a Mali with full blown DM. Then they have to have the dog put down to get a sample of the dogs spinal tissue and test it. Then & only then will Mali's be placed on the DM list.
There is nothing to stop anybody testing for DM.
BUT YES! BOTH PARENTS MUST BE TESTED TO FIND OUT WHO IS THE DM CARRIER!
A WONDERFUL 65.00 TEST WITH OFA OR DDC VETS A SIMPLE CHEEK SWAB!
your dog must NOT have had anything to drink or eat for 2 hours prior to the test. NOT EVEN play with any shared toys! Then you simply swab the inside of the dogs cheek & send off to the labs.
it is SO EASY!
We will NEVER buy from any breeder that wont DM test there dogs!
Nothing is worse then to see your beautiful girl slowly be disabled & hurt by horrible backyard breeders that wont fully test there stock.
How do you feel when you pay 800, 1000, 1500 or 2000 for a dog that is suffering as an adult
and has to be put down in your arms.... so what do you think of breeders not testing there dogs now?
Each & every dog being bred needs to be tested to stop this.
DM is the HUMAN FORM OF MS, right? That is how I read is as
PLEASE test your dogs before you breed :)
by Blitzen on 19 February 2012 - 02:16
|Well, yes I am glad to hear that. I see that ad now reflects the fact that all puppies are sold as companions only with limited registration. Did it say that before and I missed it? If so, I apologize for not recognizing that.|
Actually I've seen other ads worded in a similar way without the limited registration provision. It's semantics, but could and probably will be misconstured by the novice or uniformed buyer to mean that only one parent needs to be tested which we know is not generally true. Given some here say they never even heard of DM before we talked about it here, I have to wonder if there is a good understanding of the mode of inheritance.
I'm not quite sure why anyone with an n/n dog would give stud service to an untested bitch, but obviously there's a lot about this breed I'll never understand.
by Nans gsd on 19 February 2012 - 02:19
|ALS & MS combined; terrible, horrific disease.|
by Blitzen on 19 February 2012 - 02:30
|Oregon, the most current thinking is that canine DM is the human equivilent of ALS/Lou Gehrigs disease. That could be very good news for the breed as it should open the door to receiving some nice grants for studying this disease. It's always a good thing when a breed of dog can offer a canine model for a human disease.|
by leoetta on 19 February 2012 - 02:30
|You didn't miss it Blitzen LOL. She did just add that they are only sold with limited registration as family companions as well as the price ranges for her puppies. I called her to tell her she may want to add that to her advertisement and she had thought she had it on there as it was a copy past thing but in fact it got left out. :)|
by leoetta on 19 February 2012 - 02:49
|By the way Blitzen just to add, she owns the stud dog and is the one that had him tested for DM, and did not feel the need to test her females as she is selling with limited registration and will only ever breed with one parent that is N/N.|
by Blitzen on 19 February 2012 - 04:28
|Ok, whatever. At least she tested one which is more than I can say about most of the other people advertising litters here. As long as buyers and breeders understand what it all means and don't think that they are buying or breeding "100% DM free" dogs when only one parent has been tested.|
by leoetta on 19 February 2012 - 05:12
|I know what you are saying and agree, most definitely people that are buying dogs for the purpose of future breeding need to know the status of both parents or the dog itself that they are buying. As I said she used the word "free" because the puppies will be free of the disease itself, meaning they are free from being at risk according to the research. It has actually been kind of hard for her to figure out the best way word it which is why she puts the explanation of DM at the bottom of the ad stating that the current research shows that with at least one N/N parent the puppies are free from being at risk of developing the disease itself. Her puppies are irrelevant to breeders though as not a single one of them will ever be bred as she wants them all to be family companions and not breeding dogs.|
I have chosen to test all of my breeding dogs because some of my puppies are sold to breeders. Some of my pet clients that have dealt with DM personally also feel a little more confident knowing that both parents are tested. Luckily for me, so far all of my breeding dogs as well as a couple of mine that have since retired tested Clear N/N.
by Blitzen on 19 February 2012 - 06:07
|Barbie, here's what gets to me. A while ago I saw an ad for a litter out of a nn male and an at risk female, the status of both verifed on the OFA site. The puppies were advertised as having no chance of being at risk, the sire was normal and the dam's status never mentioned. True the puppies can't be at risk, but every one is a carrier and that was never mentioned in the ad. What was told to buyers? I have no clue.|
I don't get all spastic about using carriers, I'll probably be doing that myself this year for my first litter of GSD's and probably my last LOL. I don't think it's a terrible thing to use at risks if they are bred to normals. But IMO it's dishonest for a breeder who knows better, which this one did, to intimate in a for sale ad on a website that every puppy was a safe breeding risk as far as DM goes.
I hate to see this test is being used improperly as a marketing tool. From what you say, I can't think that your friend had any wrong intentions when she placed that ad here.
by Abby Normal on 19 February 2012 - 12:36
|I agree Blitzen, I would urge all breeders to be very open and clear about their dogs status. If only so that there are no accidental misunderstandings that lead to tragedy for someone in the future.|
by Blitzen on 19 February 2012 - 12:54
|Abby, I seldom see any DM information whatsoever with any for sale ads here or anywhere else. I'm not sure if the breeders honestly don't know about the test or if they know and aren't using it. Not all are from the US, but if a breeder can ship a puppy from Europe to the US, they can mail a cheek swab here too.|
by Abby Normal on 19 February 2012 - 14:08
|As far as I can tell, the US is DM testing far more than the UK. On a population basis though that may well not be the case. The dearth of testing generally appears abysmal.|
Historically Germany (read SV) did not recognise some GSD diseases including Haemophilia and Pituitary Dwarfism and did not test for them, even though there was no doubt that they existed!
I do not know what the situation is today. My sense is that they still do not test or openly acknowledge many diseases, and therefore are unlikely to encourage the use of newly available tests, since this would require acknowledgement that the breed has many more health problems.
I would be very happy to be corrected on this point, and to hear that the SV do now recommend health tests for more than ED/HD. (Some now are also testing for spinal problems). The reluctance of some UK breeders to test for certain conditions themselves because they intend to put their bitches to German V or VA dogs certainly suggests to me that this is still the case.
Maybe this accounts for such a large number of dogs not being tested? Just an idea.
by GSD2727 on 19 February 2012 - 15:33
|IMO it is unrealistic to only buy a puppy from a litter where both parents are tested clear. IMO if one parent is tested clear I would be happy. Then you know your puppy will not be at risk. Sure it may be a carrier, but that will just need to be addressed when breeding in the future. |
There are SO FEW people testing right now, I have only seen a handful of litters where both parents are tested and many of those litters are untitled parents. While DM is horrible, it is just one aspect of the breed. There are SO MANY more things to take into consideration. If I had to choose between a litter where both parents were DM clear yet not titled, not proven in any other way or a litter where the parents were exceptional in every way but not tested for DM - that choice would be easy for me! Obviously the best option would be exceptional dogs who are tested for DM... which will hopefully become more common in the future.
ALSO keep in mind, there is NOTHING WRONG with breeding carriers or even at risk dogs IMO. We NEED to use these dogs for breeding! It would be stupid to throw them out of the gene pool and harm the breed more than any good that would come from it! Maybe someday in the future we will be able to only breed clear dogs, but right now we need carriers/at risk dogs and they can EASILY be bred responsibly without producing any more at risk dogs going forward.
by Blitzen on 19 February 2012 - 16:13
I dunno, I'd want to know the status of both parents, but that's me. Or I'd want to know the status of the puppy I was interested in. I guess it's OK as long as the buyer (and the breeder) understands what it means when one parent is nn and the other not tested. If the breeder makes it clear that the puppy they are buying could test as a carrier and explains what that means, then I don't have a problem with not testing both parents when one is an nn. Another alternative is to test the breeding quality puppies at 4 weeks which would probably be more costly than just testing the other parent. It just seems to me like it's getting half way to the goal line and falling on the ball.
by GSD2727 on 19 February 2012 - 23:46
|Blitzen, it may not be up to the breeder if both parents are tested or not. I cannot force stud dog owners to test their dogs. And I refuse to ONLY go to tested dogs with my Clear female because it would limit my choices and force me to choose a male who may not be as good for her. If she were a carrier, I would have to go about things differently... but she is clear, so I am happy and feel perfectly fine with breeding her to an untested male. In the future I am sure more and more people will test their dogs, but it doesnt happen overnight and I refuse to neglect other aspects of the dog that are just important.|
by Blitzen on 20 February 2012 - 02:07
|I understand GSD2727 and would feel the same if I were breeding nice dogs. My concern is with those who are not being honest with their buyers; you are not one of them.|