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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > If the Capt. was alive today (254 replies)
by Mackenzie on 18 February 2012 - 06:51 |
KitKat 2478 You mention in your post about the influence of Arminius and Wienerau dogs being influential in the days of creating today’s working dogs. The reason behind this is that at that time the division in the breed between s/l and w/l was not as it is today. It was mainly one breed at that time. Remember that Arminius was the name for Hermann Martin’s kennel and Wienerau kennel was his brother’s. Hermann Martin was President at this time and therefore it comes as no surprise as to the influence of the two kennels. There were also questions about Zamb v d Wienerau that rumbled on for years regarding the true status of his hips. He could not get an acceptable hip score in Germany and he was sent to Italy to be scored and came back with an acceptable result. Another point to be considered is that in those times the dogs were better trained to ensure that they had correct sch h qualifications and, the S/L trainers were better, IMO, than those we have now. The dogs must have the basic attributes to be a working dog but it also depends very much on good trainers moulding those attributes in to the desired end product. Quando’s sire Xaver v Arminius has a character defect in that he bordered on naturally being savage. Captain Max forecast in his writings right from the beginning and gave warning about everything that we see today and is not in the best interest of the GSD. Mackenzie |
by Rass on 18 February 2012 - 19:30 |
| Thank you Mackenzie!!! One of the issues that I see is how the tests for a dog to be considered a breeding animal have been watered down (and continue to be watered down). It used to be that the SchH test or the HGH test was to see if a dog had the nerve, intelligence, bidability and drive to be a dog worthy of passing on its genes. The test was outside of what the dog was used for to do actual work such as Police or Herding work. The tests became a sport.. a goal in and of themselves.. and ceased to be tests but became, instead, a sport replete with the race for trophies and titles. When that happens, the goals change and then there needs to be a different measure to determine if a dog has what it takes to pass on its genes. I recall seeing a Black and White film of an OLD tracking test (not even sure where I saw it). The dog had to track over varied terraine and through brush and brambles and across fence lines and at the end, he found a "bad guy" all suited up with a stick and a blank pistol. The dog's job was to find that "bad guy" who could be anywhere (not always in a blind) and then detain him. At first the dog would bark and hold and the bad guy would then try to run and the dog had to stop him with a bite and a grip. The dog had to hear gun fire and take stick hits. The stick hits and the gun fire actually escalated the dog's intensity and the good dogs were in it because they enjoyed the fight! It was very cool to see this film. That sort of test found out if a dog had hunt drive, defense drive and combat drive and the nerve and courage to use those drives. The dogs were off lead for the film I saw. Some of our good Schutzhund dogs would do this test fine today.. but a lot of them would not. I would think that Max would have wanted them able to do the test in the black and white film I saw. I think Max would be very disappointed today. I think Max is turning over in his grave at where the breed has gone. |
by Mackenzie on 18 February 2012 - 19:42 |
The most impressive and awesome test of character that I saw a dog put through was on a video of a German Police Dog trial. The dog was sent on a long chase and midway he was buzzed by a helicopter no more than 10/12 feet above the dog. The dog did not hesitate but kept focused on the man he was chasing and eventually captured him after the man pointed a gun at the dog and fired from close range. I hate to think what would happen if any dog today were to be put through the same test. Magnificent. Mackenzie |
by sable59 on 18 February 2012 - 19:43 |
| i watched some of the westminster(sp) dog show. the gsd on there was a disgrace. i thought he would loose his hips going around the ring.what a shame!! |
by Ibrahim on 18 February 2012 - 19:55 |
| Mackenzie & Rass, thank you so much indeed, your contribution is priceless. |
by Koach on 18 February 2012 - 22:21 |
| Rass said: I recall seeing a Black and White film of an OLD tracking test (not even sure where I saw it). The dog had to track over varied terraine and through brush and brambles and across fence lines and at the end, he found a "bad guy" all suited up with a stick and a blank pistol. The dog's job was to find that "bad guy" who could be anywhere (not always in a blind) and then detain him. At first the dog would bark and hold and the bad guy would then try to run and the dog had to stop him with a bite and a grip. The dog had to hear gun fire and take stick hits. The stick hits and the gun fire actually escalated the dog's intensity and the good dogs were in it because they enjoyed the fight! It was very cool to see this film. Not knowing any better that is how we trained out first dogs to track in the late 70's, a fight and a bite at the end of a long and difficult track over varied terrain. Then things changed in the early 80's when we started attending Schutzhund seminars. We were then introduced to FST (foot step tracking), food for drive and easy short tracks on immaculate terrain. No doubt, breeding dogs for show on one side and for "sports points" on the other side has had a crippling effect on the breed. |
by Blitzen on 18 February 2012 - 22:27 |
| Why is it every thread intended to be a serious discussion on the breed is used by a few to bash the ASL's or the GSL's. Are you people dillusional or do you suffer from terminal kennel blindness? Do you really think the WL's couldn't stand some improving? So what if you didn't like the BOB dog at the Garden? Who cares? My apologies to the OP for stepping in here. I don't normally engage in this my dog's better than your dog BS. It's a bad way to put the damper on a good discussion. |
Blitzen by ronin on 18 February 2012 - 22:47 |
| Please excuse my ignorance but how can the Show Lines better the Working Lines or contribute to the health, temperment or physical qualities? Ronin |
ronin by johan77 on 18 February 2012 - 23:07 |
| One solution would be a breedclub with two directions but under the same roof, one for show and one for work/sport. Breeders must choose one direction and follow gudelines for the choosen direction, woringkingbreeders could continue to find ways to improve health and workingability and things that concern the working GSD, the showbreeders can countinue with the goal and intresst they have now. Everyone gains on this, the puppybuyers can choose the type of GSD they want and the fight between show and workingbreeders would come to an end, support the direction you are intressted in and improve the type of GSD you are a breeder of. This is the way for the future I belive, the same suggestion but more detailed one big breeder of working GSDs wrote about on his website/blogg here in sweden, where the breedclub apparantly are more into show and many are dissaopointed with the lack of common goals in the breedclub, seems like the same story in the SV. The other solution is just to do nothing, but with shrinking popularity of the breed and no consensus on what a GSD should look and act like this seems like a bad alternative. |
by Red Sable on 18 February 2012 - 23:14 |
| Blitzen, also mentioned was how the 'sport' has ruined them too. It is just a fact. |
Red Sable by Rass on 19 February 2012 - 00:29 |
| My point was not about which lines are what.. in all honesty I think the Martin Brothers did a large disservice to the breed and I am not sure Raiser is helping it either. The BREED.. was designed to work... and originally that included the work of herding (which, BTW is not for the feint of heart!). It also included protection of shepherd, family and property. Today I see show lines that have weakness (but not in all dogs) when it comes to nerve and combat drive.. a lack of hunt drives. I see working lines that are mostly prey drive with insufficienty fight/combat/hunt drives and often a lack of biddability (but not in all dogs). Confidence is lacking when drives are not sufficient and balanced. If the dog is balanced, he does not need to bite to succeed. He needs to believe he has been the victor and the one controlling the situation. I think this dog was more prevalent in the past in both the working and show lines.. and it was more prevalent in the American lines. This is a dog that enjoyed the fight.. that escalated the fight, and was not afraid to hunt down and detain.. and did not need a bite to satisfy his drive. |
by darylehret on 19 February 2012 - 00:32 |
| "shrinking popularity of the breed" I haven't heard that phrase before, but sounds like it couldn't be all bad. There already ARE seperate venues and club organizations for the varying proponents of whatever flavor GSD suits you. That's not a solution, that's part of the problem. IMO, THE central problem IS that there is a very noticeable splintering of ONE breed in which a common name is shared, but each branch of which is used for different purposes and stems from uncommon heritage. I say, let's call a duck a duck and quit kidding ourselves. And forget about which fracture deserves the right to use the breedname, I'd be willing to call MY breed anything else, in order to not be associated with it's portions I find disgusting. |
darylehret by Blitzen on 19 February 2012 - 00:48 |
deleted by author |
by darylehret on 19 February 2012 - 01:45 |
| I feel that's a completely a different topic, and hopefully won't derail this particular thread. Breedworthiness by my personal standards aren't in question to myself ;-) But in part, MY "golden middle" is a dog suitable for three primary facets; a dog that can appropriately immerse itself in a social or family environment, has the necessary drive to be competitive in sport, and the true grit to test their mettle in the sometimes very harsh world of real working conditions. The schutzhund venue should ideally be an appropriate test for such a dog, but unfortunately in itself does not produce such a dog. Other heavyweight factors of my selection process would include the inheritable health, trainability, and inclination to serve (biddability). It seems to myself that I hold a greater respect for "genetic obedience" than many folks in the protection sports do. And appearantly, the protection sports themselves cannot adequately test for this with much more accuracy than their "courage test". And don't get me started on FST. My point is, while there are differing aims by various groups in ONE breed, there will be "specialization" toward those goals. That does little to help ANY of the group's sense of identity for their version of the breed, whereas their their selection for these specialized functions have appearantly resulted in vastly different dogs. I think we ought to get over this notion that we can "bring them all together", to recreate one beautiful golden middle for everyone. Let's instead, celebrate them for their differences, and give them each an identity of their own, as they deserve! |
by Chaz Reinhold on 19 February 2012 - 05:17 |
| I think he'd buy a malinois. |
Chaz Reinhold by Blitzen on 19 February 2012 - 05:23 |
ROFLMAO...... |
by Mackenzie on 19 February 2012 - 08:03 |
What will it take for people to learn and understand that from the very beginning there has only been ONE German Shepherd? Let me say at this point that whatever the faults of the SV it has the best system in the world in the way that the breed should be organised and its continuance for the betterment of the German Shepherd Dog. It is the human failings that is responsible for the implementation, administration and enforcement of the rules. Responsibility for the anatomical changes in the breed lies squarely at the feet of the breeders whether they are show line or working line. The breeders are not breeding to the breed standard as a matter of good practise. Add to this the poor level and numbers of good trainers today. The trainers are at the two ends of the spectrum. One set does just enough to pass a test to satisfy the show requirements while the other is obsessed by the protection work. Like everything else in the world when the participants cannot achieve the protocols necessary and obligatory they bring about change in the infrastructure to fit what they are achieving which is coming up short all of the time. That is NOT the way forward anymore than allowing the suggestion that different clubs should be allowed. This breed is one family whatever your particular preference as an individual. I am fed up to the teeth of hearing about the sch H that are bought and seeing the show dogs just lumber up to the helpers with no zip in their work. As for the working side I am also sick of the people whose main priority is the biting and everything else is secondary. Posts like “who breeds the hardest dog?” does the breed no favours at all and confirms what I am saying here. The breeders are responsible for the bottleneck in the gene pool by simply following the leader with their breeding programmes. They must ask questions about the way development is going and make the necessary changes for the betterment of the breed. What makes a good breeder? Is it political influence, in whatever way, that allows even their below average dogs to win, or, is it the breeder who consistently breeds to the breed standard and produces consistently above average animals that can work and be shown?
It is noticeable on this database the divisions in the breed but so many of the so called top breeders from either side are silent. Is it because they are fearful that the limits of their knowledge is not really that good, or, is it a political decision? |
by Ibrahim on 19 February 2012 - 08:40 |
| Mackenzie, The only thing I agree with you here is the German Shepherd was and should remain one breed. The SV is a leader and has the power to promote what present and future GSD looks like, behaves like and perfoms. It is natural that the majority follow leadership and thus majority of breeders follow the SV and its vision. There will always be breeders who are stong believers, determined and self assured who will breed their beliefs no matter what the SV promotes but they will never be the majority. So the blame lies mostly on the hands of the SV not the breeders, though this does not relieve the breeders from their responsibility towards the breed and the creator of the breed. To say that trainers nowadays are worse is also not true, trainers train according to individual needs and to standards set by authorities. I appreciate your contributions and learn from them but this last post of yours I disagree with. Ibrahim |
by Mackenzie on 19 February 2012 - 09:36 |
Many thanks for your post. I agree with you that the SV is a leader and what it should promote is the breeding according to the breed standard in every department. The SV should also take steps to make sure that the bottlenecks that we have seen in the years before do not arise to the levels we now see for future development. In the past the SV as a body under he guidance of the President of the day permitted the gene pool to be drastically reduced by disqualifying dogs because of colour alone. They naturally took the fees for registration from the members who owned the greys, bicolour and blacks in the knowledge that they could accomplish nothing in the show ring. The owners personal preference for colour meant nothing. The SV would not exist if it were not for the breeders. Simple, no product no SV. I agree with you that people be allowed to breed to their beliefs but this has to be done within the framework of the rules, otherwise, there would be no need for a breed standard and all that goes with it. It is for the SV to administer, control and enforce the rules as set out and which has held good for the breed since it’s beginning. Sadly, the SV does not always enforce the rules with the rigour that is sometimes needed. The level of expertise of trainers depends on their individual circumstances. There will be, as in every walk of life, a high level of experience in the professionals and this can be seen in the results that they achieve. The working people mainly keep a low number of dogs because they then have the time to train the dogs themselves and, they get good results. These are usually are the hobbyists who get a great deal of pleasure from their animals. On the other hand the breeders quite often keep too many dogs. I know some breeders with more than twenty animals. How much time can they give each dog? Not enough and, despite what some of these people say about training a dog they themselves have never trained an animal. The numbers in this group are the highest in failures regarding the ability to work. Some would say that it is up to the trainers to mould the dogs but without the breeders there would be no dogs to train. There will always be excellent trainers but they will be in the minority in relation to the overall number of trainers needed in the breed world wide. Mackenzie |
by duke1965 on 19 February 2012 - 10:14 |
| it is too easy to point your fingers at the SV and the showlinebreeders , as the only ones to blame really for the quality of workingline shepherds today , is the workingline breeders , as they make the combinations and select what pups to keep , I know many breeders who select their studs for one reason , will he sell my pups , another group goes to breed the winner of the day , which is another big problem , pretty soon an interview with Helmut Raiser will be published in english ,where he will command some of these topics , and yes I think you should support RSV2000 and put pressure on AKC and CKC to accept the pedigrees of this club , as they are FCI pedigrees and should be accepted like any other FCI pedigree As for the original topic , I think captain Max would hate to see the breed to go to whatever over the top specialism possible , so as much as he would hate the showline that cannot do anything else than show , he would also hate the sport/points dogs of today that cannot do anything else , and he would be sad for the lost versatility the breed was known and wanted for , like in seeing eye dogs where they dont use shepherds anymore , the many other jobs where german shepherds used to be the standard , but now are hardly found anymore ,because this was what he worked for so hard ,to create a versatile workingbreed ,not only loved but even more so , used by many |
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