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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Penciling in the German Shepherd dog (18 replies)
Penciling in the German Shepherd dog by Dobermanfan on 14 February 2012 - 18:34 |
| This is probably considered a stupid question. I'm not new to the German Shepherd breed. I am just am new to learning about genetics and coat color, etc. When a German Shepherd black/bi color has penciling on it's feet. What does this mean? Is this like a brindle patterning? Is their Brindle way way back in the lines. Could it throw a brindle? |
by Felloffher on 14 February 2012 - 18:39 |
| Every black shepherd I've owned has had some brown hair between his toes. Black penciling on a bi-color/sable indicates they carry the black ressive gene. |
Felloffher by Fenrir on 14 February 2012 - 18:45 |
| Black penciling generally means that your dog has what I like to call "A touch of awesome" as clearly the solid black is the most awesome and your dog likely carries the recessive gene. Even if it only a touch of awesome consider yourself lucky to be graced by the solid black goodness. |
Fenrir by Dobermanfan on 14 February 2012 - 19:47 |
| I just want to know at what point does the penciling end and the brindle begin? |
by Emoore on 14 February 2012 - 20:31 |
| Isn't brindling on legs horizontal? And penciling comes up from between the toes? |
Emoore by Kalibeck on 14 February 2012 - 21:03 |
| Pencilling & brindle are 2 different things, not related at all! Way back when GSDs had some brindle supposedly, but I've never seen any or pictures of any that were convincing to me. On the other hand, pencilling is much sought after, because it is the ultimate in dark, rich pigment that the breed standard calls for. As mentioned above, brindling is noted to be horizontal striping on the legs, while pencilling is on the toes & can extend up the leg in the front & the back, called tar heels. Hope that helps! jackie harris |
Kalibeck by Kalibeck on 14 February 2012 - 21:17 |
.jpg) pencilling jackie harris |
by Kalibeck on 14 February 2012 - 21:19 |
| I had a brindle picture, too, but for some reason it won't post it. Oh well! jackie harris |
by pod on 15 February 2012 - 01:32 |
| Agree with Kaliback in that pencilling and brindle are not related genetically, though they can look similar in darkly pigmented dogs. The main difference is that pencilling is symmetric and brindle, being a somewhat random pattern, is asymmetric.... usually. ETA: It is very unlikely that the brindle gene remains in the gene pool from early times as the only colours that can carry it unseen are solid blacks (or brown , blue etc) or very darkly pigmented B&Ts or sables. |
pod by Siantha on 15 February 2012 - 05:12 |
 Brindle imo :\  more brindle  toe penciling  penceling on a dark sable puppy |
Siantha by Chaz Reinhold on 15 February 2012 - 05:48 |
| Doesn't a Dobe have penciling? Never seen a brindle Dobe. |
Chaz Reinhold by darylehret on 15 February 2012 - 05:59 |
| We've covered this multiple times over the years; penciling is not a "rule" for recessive black. This dog with NO toe penciling DOES carriy a black recessive gene. I know this, he's my dog.  This dog that HAS toe penciling DOES NOT carry a black recessive gene. After a couple hundred progeny at least, and being bred to numerous solid black bitches.  |
darylehret by BlackthornGSD on 15 February 2012 - 08:08 |
| Sable/sable, sable/black, and sable/bicolor dogs all show the toe penciling -- it just can be very lightly done--fine black lines on the toes instead of the "muddy" paws often seen. Just about the only sables that I've seen that *don't* have penciling is sable/saddle. Daryl, does your dog have very thin black lines on his toes? This sable didn't have the black gene--   Christine |
BlackthornGSD by AmbiiGSD on 15 February 2012 - 11:33 |
| Question: Do we ever see Toe pencilling without mucky hocks? |
AmbiiGSD by darylehret on 15 February 2012 - 12:49 |
| There's a few dispersed dark hairs, best seen when the dog is wet and they clump together, so that they don't blend in as much. But not enough to call toe penciling by any measure. Here's a photo at the original resolution of my dog's wet toes. http://www.ehretgsd.com/wetdogtoes062611.jpg |
by Kalibeck on 15 February 2012 - 18:17 |
| Wow Siantha! That certainly looks like a brindle GSD! What does the SV say about brindles, out of curiosty? A very striking looking dog! jackie harris |
by beetree on 15 February 2012 - 19:34 |
| Siantha, what is that dogs pedigree? I am very curious. I agree with Kalibeck because that dog sure looks black and brindle to me! |
beetree by GSDGenetics on 02 May 2012 - 19:19 |
| Penciling also sometimes called toe tracings are most commonly seen in agouti/sable German Shepherd Dogs carrying the black recessive gene, in some very dark bicolor GSDs, or in genetic solid black GSDs that have what's sometimes called "bleedthrough" of their lighter genetic ground color showing through on their lower legs. HOWEVER, I have seen a few very dark agouti/sables who had toe tracings/penciling & appeared to be typical agouti/sables carrying black but who in breeding proved to be pure for agouti/sable and did not carry the black recessive. Those I've seen so far whose immediate ancestors, pedigrees & progeny record I was able to follow had one or both parents who was agouti/sable that carried the black recessive. It's possible that an agouti/sable may show this appearance and prove to carry the very dark bicolor pattern but as yet I've not had the necessary data to verify it. Siantha, I'd love to know the pedigree of the saddle black & brindle-tan dog you posted. Brindle in the GSD is dominant & affects the ground color (the lighter color-red tan cream or silver of a GSD is actually the ground color- the BLACK actually is the marking color that spreads in genetically determined pattern over the lighter ground color). Thus a brindle GSD may be a brindle agouti/sable, a saddle pattern brindle, a dark bicolor brindle, or a solid black whose brindle ground color would probably be obscured even if that dog does have "bleedthrough" of the lighter ground color on the lower backs of the legs etc. I've personally seen brindle agouti/sable, saddle black & brindle/red, saddle black & brindle/tan & for a brief time I personally owned a bicolor black & brindle/red. I believe that the mutation for brindle occurs regularly in the breed & isn't actually all that uncommon, but unless the mutation happens to occur in litters owned by reputable breeders who have a lot of knowledge about coat color & pattern genetics in the GSD breed, most brindle GSDs probably either go unrecognized or else there is doubt about parentage of a brindle pup. Also although I personally found the black & brindle/red bicolor I owned to be attractive, the agouti/sable brindles weren't particularly attractive & brindling in the saddle pattern dog interferes with the illusion of enhanced bone & angulation that the contrast between the saddle & the lighter ground color gives to a saddle pattern dog. In the early history of the breed, there were a number of colors, combinations of colors & patterns in the breed that weren't perpetuated, some because of misunderstandings of color genetics, some because of breed club politics, & some probably because influential people in the breed (breed wardens, judges, etc) disliked their appearance. Most certainly people who want to win choose to breed the colors/patterns the judges put up in the show ring. One only has to look at the SV Sieger Show to see it is overwhelmingly dominated by saddle pattern black & red dogs, rarely an agouti gets a high placing. Dark agoutis & solid blacks are never seen in the Sieger Show. However in working competition which is not a beauty contest, blacks & dark agouti/sable GSDs are very commonly seen. |
by fawndallas on 02 May 2012 - 19:45 |
This is great information. Rose's 16 day old puppies show what some of you are calling the toe penciling. Will this always be true for the dog, or do I need to wait a few more weeks to get the puppy's true coloring? |
fawndallas
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