German Shepherd Dog > ___Bloodlines - Hardness and Aggression___ (57 replies)
by judron55 on 10 February 2012 - 14:01
well guys/gals...here are a few topics you should read. very good info...Slamdunc...thought you might enjoy!
by Bill J on 10 February 2012 - 14:05
|"If you look at GSD's doing well in french ring, they come from the same lines doing WUSV, so finding one for FR isn't difficult..."|
wouldn't this be a extreme prey dog. Didn't the OP say he was looking for defense drive? civil and/or social aggression? I doubt many FR dogs or WUSV dogs that win championships have these drives.
From what I've HEARD, these might be a good place to start.
Fado von der Lutter
by Slamdunc on 10 February 2012 - 15:12
That was an interesting read. I had forgotten about Don's site, thanks for providing that link.
Why do people think that the top sport dogs, like the BSP, or WUSV dogs are all prey? Why don't people realize that many of these dogs are balanced, high drive dogs with prey and defense? A Malinois may be an extreme prey dog that will turn into serious aggression very quickly. There are many GSD's just like that competing at the top levels. The lines that produce the hard, civil, high drive dogs are mentioned on at least three different threads right now. What I see is that many people do not understand the value of prey drive, it's benefits and how to use it. Sure, a high drive dog can be a pain in the ass at times, but a whole lot of fun most other times. I like hard, serious dogs but they must be high drive. If they lack the drives I could care less how hard the dog is. If I wanted a purely defensive, serious dog with low prey I'd get a Caucasian Mountain dog. But, I have no use / interest in that breed or a dog with a one dimensional temperament like that.
I suppose we all have different reasons for the dogs we choose or like. I guess high drive dogs are too much for pet people, that is certainly understandable. The people who train, work or compete with their dogs understand the importance of prey and the balance needed with other drives. I prefer dogs with high prey and defense drives (not play drive, geez), hardness, serious with strong civil aggression, clear headed and fairly social. IMO, dogs like this make great sport or working dogs, though they can be a PITA at times. I'll take the moments of annoyance to get everything else I want. The enjoyment of watching a high drive dog that enjoys his work makes it all worth while. Walking out on the training field or taking a dog out of my patrol car with absolute presence, strength and ready to work is an awesome feeling. It is really nice when the dog all by himself "wows" people, through his whole demeanor and abilities. I'm going to stick with those extreme prey sporty dog lines that win at the WUSV or BSP and enjoy myself. When I can no longer find GSD's like that, I will switch to the Malinois.
Keep in mind when training or working dogs, hardness and aggression is important. But with out adequate prey drive training can be very difficult, especially for the dog.
by vomtreuenhaus on 10 February 2012 - 15:22
Without prey drive I find it would be very hard to get a dog to react to a helper in puppy stages IMO. Without a heightened prey drive I feel the dogs sport/street career would fail quickly without a desire to chase and capture.
by Slamdunc on 10 February 2012 - 15:40
|Exactly, prey is critial for a sport or Police K-9. It is also an important drive for anyone wanting to train a PPD. It can be a relief valve when you begin to pressure the dog seriously. Those who understand the importantance and how to work the varrious drives utilize prey for several things including speed, foundation and stress relief.|
by Bill J on 10 February 2012 - 15:51
|who has said prey drive isn't important? i think anybody would agree prey drive is very necessary.|
by Slamdunc on 10 February 2012 - 16:01
|There are several threads and posts discussing the prey / play drive in sport dogs today.|
by judron55 on 10 February 2012 - 16:02
enjoy these videos people...this is a dog that has numerous real street bites....look at his calmness and serious attitude yet completely controllable. When you watch him hunt...his motivation is the fight
by thunderingnights on 10 February 2012 - 16:11
|Thanks for the info. :)|
And Bill J, No one said prey drive isn't important. Where do you even...get that. Without it working dogs would be a nigh impossible thing to achieve humainly.
by judron55 on 10 February 2012 - 16:18
|while prey drive is necessary, I think the helpers are no longer agitators..they are showing dogs friendly...non-threating postures and the dogs respond as such... dogs should view the helper as someone who is an adversary, who pesters, agitates, teases and fights with the dog. The dogs will look at you differently if you always have your game face on but I see many helpers who are incapable of doing this!!!|
by joanro on 10 February 2012 - 16:25
|First and for most, the dog is a CARNIVORE!! Without PREY DRIVE, they would become extinct on their own. That is what is so precious about true GSDs, they can and do survive in a feral state which means they still have what breeds such as the guardians have had bred out of them, instincts conducive to survival.|
by duke1965 on 10 February 2012 - 16:46
|funny that many forget the word balanced , Yes I want preydrive , but NO I dont want all prey no defence|
Jim. I have to seriously disagree with you on the seriousness/hrdness/balance of some of the topcompeting malis and GSD from the last years , maybe the amount ouf breedings some topdogs get from serious breeders will point you in the right direction
by Fenrir on 10 February 2012 - 17:25
|I would say the reason people are bringing up prey drive is because as of late the last month or so there have been many, many comments utterly bashing dogs with high prey. The feeling of the posts being a dog with crazy prey lacks fight and aggression for some unexplained reason. Bites that come in prey are more reliable and full. A wolf that is biting to defend its territory or well being or out of defense or in a fight is often looking to deal damage while avoiding it himself, the bites may be quick and hard but overall the purpose is to make the threat go away or fight to end. A wolf that is biting for the sake of the hunt is biting to kill and to not allow the prey to escape, the bite is much more full and deep the bite causes the wolf pleasure as well.|
These are the same drives our own dogs possess, we have simply fine tuned them to our own purposes. I prefer my dogs bite to come while in prey but expect my dog to bite for real with intensity while in more defensive or active aggression bites. Regardless the mind set of the dog I want the dog to fight like hell, should be able to hit it with a bat and have the damn thing keep going even more intense. It should be obvious that prey is necessary however the way people have been bashing on the dogs with it in abundance lately it seems as if maybe it is not so obvious after all.
Once again, balance should be the end goal that said why not have high prey and high confident aggression? Our dog is a thinker as I said earlier and bred right there is no reason the 3rd smartest dog on earth (though if you asked me the 1st) cannot control their drives and switch between them at will.
I also agree with what has been said about helper work and a helper should be able to switch the dog from prey to defense and should not be the nice guy on the field that is going to give you the bite you love so much. One day I hope to be good at doing this and it is my end goal with it.
by sable59 on 10 February 2012 - 17:37
|prey drive is one of the most important thing in police dogs. how the neck are we to train them for detection if all they want to do is bite?|
a well bred dog,as has been said, must have prey,hunt,track and a civil side.
i love a dog with prey drives that are high. most of what i breed are and therefore make great dual purpose dogs. they can also be very civil when need be.my personel dogs are high prey and can be a nuisance at times but i wouldn't have it any other way.
jim knows what is needed in a good dog. for christs sake.he is in the field working his dog almost every day.
you officers be careful out there.
by brynjulf on 10 February 2012 - 17:37
|Dogs with no prey drive are a pain in the butt. I am working a male currently who is not a prey dog at all, total defence dog. It is making my life harder than it should be. BALANCE is the key. Heavy Ellute breeding so not sure what happened here at all. I usually love the breeding....not looking forward to tracking this guy at all. He is kick and stick all the way, but too much pressure and he will come up the leash on you.|
by johan77 on 10 February 2012 - 17:51
|Dogs with both much prey and a serious side are used quite much in germany, dogs like sid v haus pixner, jucan peroh and more I wouldn´t call typical mostly prey/sport-lines. What I´ve heard sportier dogs are used more in holland and maybe belgium, high prey and lively dogs that are fast and flashy, but not aggresion so much and also softer to make their high drives more controllable. But of course this is a generalization, but no doubt some dogs and lines appear "sportier" than others. Ringsport and KNPV is spsrts that needs lots of prey and to say ringdogs have more aggresion or hardness sounds unlikely because it´s not needed.|
Tre are dogs/lines that are less sporty, if you know what types of dogs is in a pedigree and what the parents produced previously, don´t look for sporttitles, better know how the dogs are like and best is to see them work also in practical work, or dogs that are proven also in this. Noackingwrong with prey, but it should be balaerd with other traits. In older times it seems the dogs were less lively and preydriven, but they still were good at tracking or searching, so why the need for very lively dogs that flies thru the air in a couragetest if it doesn´t give them better drives for nosework than others less spectacular dogs that also have enough courage and balanced drives for both protection and nosework. It seems only good for sport if the breedings are to specific at one goal.
by duke1965 on 10 February 2012 - 17:57
|spot on johan|
by Slamdunc on 10 February 2012 - 18:07
|Judron and Fenrir,|
I absolutely agree with you. When I work dogs, especially Police dogs it is very serious and the dogs view me as a serious threat. For sport dogs, it depends on the dog's level and ability. But even sport dogs need to be pushed and unsetlled, then brought back. A good sport dog will view the decoy much like a sparring partner and the decoy must know how to present this picture.
I don't think we disagree as much as you think. Although, we can disagree and still be friends. I enjoy your posts and your breeding philosphy. I refer to balance all the time, I also want defense, but balanced with high prey. I want both, high prey and high defense. Is that asking too much?
Here are some of the current lines I like for hardness and workability, jsut to stay on topic
Ellute, his son Olek and others
Yoschy, his son Amigo amongst many many others
Cordon An Sat as well as several of his sons Tom Z, Dante, Marko, Ori etc.
Nick, Olex, Jimm
Rocky Z and his son Opal
Eliot von Prevent
Mic von der Kine
There are so many dogs to mention, and I am not including the females which are just as important. I have only skimmed the surface, thinking of BSP or WUSV dogs that bring hardness and aggression.
by duke1965 on 10 February 2012 - 18:23
jim , how many of those won the WUSV or FCI , the ones that are balanced and win the great competitions require tophandlers , like I said before , many great dogs , but they are not the great champions because they MOST OF TIMES loose points
by loujolly on 10 February 2012 - 19:17
Afra Stoppenberger Land