German Shepherd Dog > ___Bloodlines - Hardness and Aggression___ (57 replies)
___Bloodlines - Hardness and Aggression___
by thunderingnights on 09 February 2012 - 15:32
|Looking for opinions from people more knowledgable and experienced with pedigrees than myself. |
What dogs, both in showlines and working lines, are known for good nerves and defensive drives in their progency?
Sick of prey maniacs who wouldn't know a real situation if it stabbed them in the leg. Sick of soft temperments and the modernized GSD best suited to play an edgy game of tug with a bite sleeve or prance merrily around a show arena. What happened to natural protective instincts and the breeders who seek to produce the GSD the world fell in love with?
by Fenrir on 09 February 2012 - 17:04
|Man it has been pick on dogs with prey around here this week...You know what I am taking my dog back cause she has a very high prey drive. Um, why can't a dog have crazy prey and high defense and fight drives?? How is it that a German Shepherd can't be balanced? You know what I don't want?|
A reactive defense dog.
An amazing trainer once told me if you want the perfect example of total defense and defensive aggression you only have to look towards the rattlesnake. It is an animal with pure defense and aggression that if approached will attack without hesitation. However it will never chase you or go out of it's way to get you. Defense is generally a reactive drive where as prey is proactive, both drives are essential to a great dog. My bitch is probably what many are calling "Prey crazy" however you try and lay a hand on me and see what happens.
Sorry...had to defend so called "Prey Dogs" personally a good shepherd is just a "Good dog" with lots of both drives. That said I have seen some nasty Ellute progeny as far as more recent dogs.
by destiny4u on 09 February 2012 - 17:09
|i keep hearing that czech/slovak showlines are very good|
by joanro on 09 February 2012 - 17:21
|A large part of the problem is that the politically correct temperament of ALL dogs these days is that they all act like golden retrievers and cocker spaniels in different suits. Most of the advice you see on forums is that if the pups and parents of same don't run up to you practically peeing on themselves with excitement to greet you then RED FLAG, run like hell !!! For the breeder producing GSDs with the " right stuff" , there are not many people looking for a real GSD and their efforts are not appreciated by the general public. That's why the breed is being so watered down, to meet the demands of political correctness. TV programs also contribute to the new belief that all breeds of dogs should act with the same benign, dull empty headedness : "calm and submissive"! So, there are still "real" GSDs out here, but unfortunately, they are the exception rather than the norm.|
by GSDPACK on 09 February 2012 - 17:26
|The biggest part of the problem is people!|
A person can get the best puppy from a litter and still turne it into either a freack with no brain or kill any drive the poor puppy shows.
Pedigree is only small part, it is a potential not given result.
... the rest is up to the handler and trainer to do right by them.
by duke1965 on 09 February 2012 - 17:29
|fenrir , you are right , nothing wrong with preydrive IF balanced with defence , dominance/agression , sorry to say that many of todays sportlines are not so much balanced , but are tipping over to the prey side , and if it bites , many fail to see the reason why , example , the puppy hanging from a rag is solf first , but in fact tells you nothing about the pup other than crazy preydrive|
with the introduction of full points for full calm grip , and losing poins for troubling the helper the situation is created that easy trainable sportdogs are high prey , low defence , very low sharpnes , reactiveness are bred for and selected on , and where you breed for extremes , you loose variety , and you will create three lines in german shepherds eventually , showlines , sportlines , and versatile dogs that can be used for various jobs , army , police ,personal protection and so on
thats why I like to breed courageous reactive defensive dogs to couragious more sport/prey oriented dogs , this brings me dogs that can fit in everywhere ,and are worked in many various jobs , but sometimes are not the easyest for first time dogowners
by Ace952 on 09 February 2012 - 17:35
|Seriously not trying to be a smart ass here. If you are use to these"prey monsters" and you are sick of it and want hardness and aggression.......what makes you think you can handle that type of dog? If you don't know the bloodlines nor know the breeders that produce that type of dog, can you really handle it? Maybe a dog with a medium prey drive and higher nervebase is a better solution. Hardness and aggression is a whole 'nother thing.|
by Fenrir on 09 February 2012 - 17:41
|I do agree about the lots of the German Shepherd turning more and more into a less efficiant Malinois and that just upsets me, if that is what you want just get a Mali. Von Stephanitz liked a dog with high drive but a strong sharpness when called for. A balanced Shepherd is a thing of utter beauty, the kind of dog that can walk right up to a stranger and give them love and licks but if that stranger so much as makes a move against you will turn it on and damn near kill a man. It is not only possible it is honestly what our dog should be, what makes the Shepherd so amazing is it is smart enough to have control of all of its drives and know when to switch it. If we breed the ability for our dogs to control those drives out of the dog and make them preytarded or nasty killers of men then we have failed the breed. The Shepherd should be a thinker first and foremost.|
by GSDPACK on 09 February 2012 - 17:57
|I agree versatility is the most important thing in a dog. Or a breeding that will bring versatility...|
by Slamdunc on 09 February 2012 - 18:00
|Man it has been pick on dogs with prey around here this week...You know what I am taking my dog back cause she has a very high prey drive. Um, why can't a dog have crazy prey and high defense and fight drives?? How is it that a German Shepherd can't be balanced? |
I have a crazy prey GSD, with high fight and defense drives. He is an awesome dog, however he will not walk up to strangers and give kisses. He will bring a toy and you can throw it for him, just don't think you are friends and don't try to pet him if he says "NO." He also has crushing, full hard grips on a sleeve, suit or bare arm, leg or what ever he gets. He is a super "sport" dog and gets full points for his street bites.
by destiny4u on 09 February 2012 - 18:18
|A large part of the problem is that the politically correct temperament of ALL dogs these days is that they all act like golden retrievers and cocker spaniels in different suits. Most of the advice you see on forums is that if the pups and parents of same don't run up to you practically peeing on themselves with excitement to greet you then RED FLAG, run like hell !!! |
rofl funny but true
by KYLE on 09 February 2012 - 18:48
Well, lets look at what part of the problem is. What studs get the most pairings? The ones that win the most titles. Who wins the most titles? The dog that wins the most points. What type of dogs get the most points? Higher prey oriented dogs!
by thunderingnights on 09 February 2012 - 22:56
I'm not here to lecture or start debates, as dog trainers often do. We love to find fault with everything, particularly eachother. Granted, it's a profession where idiocy and differences of opinion are an almost daily encounter. I am interested in learning the lines associated with natural aggression. You can always find a dog with high prey to breed to. What you're saying should be common sense, Fenrir. But since it is not, I understand the need you feel to defend the idealism behind a balanced dog. Certainly, balance should be the goal in every breeding program. A dog who is tolerant of welcomed strangers, loyal and goofy with family, gentle with children, works tirelessly for a ball and yet will fearlessly do violence on their behalf is the perfect GSD. However, this is not the aspiration in most breeding programs today.
Duke and Kyle summed up much of the increasingly dominating issue. A dog with much civil may go for something other than the sleeve when pushed, which is not practical in sport work. Therefore, they are bred for confidence and high prey, yet advertized as dogs who are perfectly suited to police and protection work when often, this is not the case. These are not balanced dogs. While they may barely make the cut as patrol and protection with extensive training, without it, you might as well buy a hardened border collie.
As for showlines, what Kyle says at the beginning holds equally true. We breed to studs who are winners of their trade, confirmation over temperment. Aggression, understandably, cannot be tolerated in a show ring. Which brings us back to the ideal balanced dog. This isn't a dog who would needlessly bite their handler or a judge, or go after one of the other dogs in the lineup. But since this balanced dog is so difficult to find, what of the soft, friendly dogs with no aggression or protective instinct who have flawless confirmation? Don't breed them and make thousands on their puppies? Humanity isn't that cool.
I agree wholeheartedly with the KNPV and ring dogs, Kyle. I would love to get into that myself. But finding GSDs in that profession is difficult (as is finding like minded trainers).
This is off topic from what my inquiry was directed toward. There are plenty of discussions about the problems with GSDs these days, and places for people with elementary knowledge of working dogs (and their raising) to flare this in assumption that they know something the next guy doesn't and base responses on assuptions. So, back on task, guys...
"What dogs, both in showlines and working lines, are known for good nerves and defensive drives in their progency?"
And/or natural protective instincts and aggression, if the terminology better suits.
by workingdogz on 10 February 2012 - 01:42
|Just a quick list off the top of my head,|
Falk Berkelau, Kim Werseufer, Harro Lechrainstadt,
Olf zur Starken Eiche, Lanzo Tiekerhook,
Zorro z Laager Wall, Nessel Antverpa, Mythus Korbelbach,
Karlo Peko Haus, Mink Wittfield, Gento haus Larwin.
Thats it for now, dinner is hot and the beer is cold
by Chaz Reinhold on 10 February 2012 - 01:56
|WD, some of those dogs are old. I see people still talking about Fado and he is so far back, I don't know how much he contributes. Op, if your just looking for a pup, call Koos at Tiekerhook. Or you can just look at his dogs pedigrees.|
by Slamdunc on 10 February 2012 - 01:58
|I will ask Koos when he comes here in the spring.|
by darylehret on 10 February 2012 - 02:44
|I have a dog from Koos, high in prey, high in defense, clear head, strong nerves, and not even a bit stubborn to work with. I canfess he's the only Tiekerhook dog I've met myself, but he's the first of a few Tiekerhook's that my previous TD ever admired. So, I can't say if he's the exception or the norm for that breeding program. My opinion is, balanced between prey and defense isn't enough by itself. Confidence, clear headedness, and biddability are equally essential. But yes, his breeding certainly underlines the value of aggression and hardness, if that's your only concern.|
by Gusmanda on 10 February 2012 - 03:03
|I agree wholeheartedly with the KNPV and ring dogs, Kyle. I would love to get into that myself. But finding GSDs in that profession is difficult (as is finding like minded trainers). |
If you look at GSD's doing well in french ring, they come from the same lines doing WUSV, so finding one for FR isn't difficult, just a matter of deciding you want to participate in it.
by thunderingnights on 10 February 2012 - 04:14
|Thank you for the suggestions. |
And I'd love to participate in ringsport. But there are no clubs or trainers for it in my area, thus "no like minded trainers".
by duke1965 on 10 February 2012 - 08:44
|problem is that GSD breeders do too much outcrossing to say :this breeder or this line is producing such type of dogs constantly , so you have to look at the good ones and than , also select the right pup , as I personally know dogs . littermates and ofspring from above mentioned dogs that are not worth much , personally trained with a littersister of daryll s dog , dont even ask , so todays dogs are so genetically diverse that the outcome of any breeding is hard to tell , if you look at a strong line of malinois you will see better predictability|
if you look at some of this dogs offspring you see a lot more similarities than in well known GSD and their offspring
to answer the question of thunder , from my litters , one that brought Many dogs with great hardness , agression , reactiveness and great prey was from ajaxgirmido bred to a remus chmelovy kvitek doughter , these are not simple dogs , but very good , and I recognize very well what remus brought in and what ajax did , so I did similair combination again with other breeder and got a great male from this combination with a friend , these are dogs I will in the future linebreed on also to keep these abilities available
also amigo zamat can be mentioned , but he is older , he produced some strong dogs for me
from german lines Ive seen some nice dogs from kennel geefacker , but dont know what they breed now , mic vd kine is supposed to be good and produce good , and in holland Ive seen strong dogs coming over Fado lutter