German Shepherd Dog > Will your working line GSD protect you (101 replies)
by Bob McKown on 02 February 2012 - 18:27
by duke1965 on 02 February 2012 - 18:33
|bob , I know that you know what you are talking about , and if everybody agrees , nobody learns|
by Sunsilver on 02 February 2012 - 18:48
|Genetics plays a big role in determining a dog's ability to protect for real. I'd like to see the names of kennels that strive to produce a balanced dog, and pay attention to overall temperament as well as prey and fight drive. To my mind, those would be Tiekerhook, Busecker Schloss, and, to a lesser extent, Kirschental.|
We all have our favourites. I like to see Lord v. Gleisdreck in a pedigree, as well as linebreeding on Bodo or Bernd v. Lierberg, although that's probably going a bit far back to have much influence. However, the Busecker Schloss kennels bred heavily to Bernd, so he definitely had a big influence on their dogs, and the Tiekerhook dogs as well, many of which came from Busecker Schloss lines.
by Red Sable on 02 February 2012 - 18:54
|"even with the best bond you can have , if your dog is all prey , no defense , he will not recognize a threat if he sees one , maybe if the criminal runs away with your laptop , his preydrive will kick in , but lack of bitingequipment on the criminal will stop him from biting anyway"|
Absolutely true!!! Bond is not nearly enough.
by wlpool on 02 February 2012 - 19:10
|As a Mom who what put together a few Science Fair Projects, I conclude that the little girl just did it as a science fair project. In that respect it is cute, but I agree with Bob.....Kinda dumb. But, not dumber than some of the Science Fair Projects that I have run across. |
My opinion is that all dogs are different products of genetics and environment. Some dogs may absolutely protect with a hard bite and some may not. Good genetics and good training is the best way to be sure though. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
by duke1965 on 02 February 2012 - 19:18
|wlpool , training can only bring out of a dog whats inside , if there is no defence , there is no defence , if defence is brought out by training , it was there to begin with|
by destiny4u on 02 February 2012 - 19:22
|do all police dogs have defense? do any run on prey onlY?|
by Dawulf on 02 February 2012 - 19:26
|I agree the video was dumb. Those last 3 dogs just looked downright scared, not wanting to be there.|
I think bond has plenty to do with it. When I was little I had two guys attempt to kidnap me. Were it not for the mini poodle we had, flipping sh*t, lunging at the end of the leash, who wound up alerting my parents with his fit, they very well may have succeeded. He was generally pretty nice with people at that point (the older he got, the more of a bastard he was), so how do you explain that one? He sensed the danger and took matters into his own hands.
And I can assure you that dog had no training whatsoever. Neither did his parents, or his parents parents, or his parents parents parents. He was that six month old, discounted because his mother already had another litter on the ground, BYB puppy.
My current dog I have as a deterrent. She comes with me to work every night, and yeah, there are a lot of weirdies around here. She's pretty intimadating looking if she wants to be. She scared a security guard half to death one time, when he was walking up to the car and she slammed her paws up against the door. Would she ever protect me if it came down to it? I hope I don't ever have to find out.
by duke1965 on 02 February 2012 - 19:29
|many police/army detectiondogs can run on prey only|
by Weezy on 02 February 2012 - 19:32
|Great reading. Very informative!|
I think the personal bond has a lot to do with how a GSD will respond and protect without any formal training. The training will help control that aspect I think. They really need to "out "when told.
Working lines I think also have the bite instinct and even if they are a social dog, if they are bonded and the protection part isn't trained out of them, IE, focused on the sleeve and ball all the time, Those hard working lines are little monsters that do end up ripping some one up when they go to pet homes that know nothing about training/focusing that part of their behavior.
Knowing a dog will bite someone does make one a little anxious though when people think they can go just pet that type of dog.
My best dogs are the ones that are reserved/suspicious with strangers and are bonded to me/family. Defense and courage, may not make a schutzhund dog, may not want to constantly retrieve a ball, but does protect.
I do agree with duke that all prey/ball drives and no defense will end up with no protection when needed.
Out of all the rural homes being broken into here a couple years ago, (and recently) where we live, Ours was not bothered. Some of my dogs won't bite--others will. Strangers just don't know which ones will. They don't know which ones are in the house at any given time, I have always had a dog that will bite and have 3 right now, so My reputation precedes me here at home. I am left alone because I have all those "mean" dogs. Really none are "mean" but will take on an intruder and always lets me know someone is out in the yard.
Wouldn't it just be nice if we could get all those qualities back in the Basic GSD...
So sad to know that protection of ones self/family/home is such a liability...
by Red Sable on 02 February 2012 - 19:36
|Poodles are not trusting of strangers, I used to have one too.|
More than a GSD can be wary of strangers, point is though, if they do not have that defense drive (plus fight drive) they will not consider anything a danger nor challenge it.
Prey will get them to chase and bite even, but that doesn't mean they will do diddly squat while you are getting knifed to death in front of them.
by Slamdunc on 02 February 2012 - 19:42
|When it comes to Police K-9's high prey is essential. Defense drive or civil aggression is also important. I like dogs that are loaded in prey, but have natural aggression and good defense. These are the dogs that will work all day, bring speed to an apprehension and then switch to a fight drive. Too much defense can be a problem, just as over the top prey can be a problem. For me a dog that is high prey / high defense, clear headed, confident and likes to fight is ideal. This is the dog I want for Police work, for sport or what ever else I choose to do. I prefer slightly higher prey than defense. These dogs will protect their handler, but will defend themselves or just fight because the right opportunity presents itself. Bonding with a dog is important, of course. But there are strong dogs that will fight an adversary just to fight that adversary. They are not defending their handler, just looking to fight. There is a difference. I am strongly bonded with my Police K-9 and I know he loves me. I would not be so foolish to think him going after someone is purely to protect me. He knows I can handle myself, he just wants in on the action. Dogs are not as altruistic as we may think. When it comes down to it, often he just wants to fight.|
by beetree on 02 February 2012 - 19:50
|"In on the action", I can see it, LOL|
I think my dog would bite out of jealousy. Not sure about a knife weilding adversary. He'd probably say WTF? Just because we don't really have much experience with knife wielding adversaries.
by duke1965 on 02 February 2012 - 20:13
|in the last 25 years when entering someones property , ive been attacked and bitten by dachshund(twice) , miniature poodle and jack russel terrier , never by a german shepherd or malinois , makes one wonder|
by Slamdunc on 02 February 2012 - 20:14
|Little dog complex. Similar to Napolean complex or "little man complex." The tough ones have nothing to prove.|
by duke1965 on 02 February 2012 - 20:24
|LOL I sold a dog for guarding to a horsestable , he said to me , first I bought two showlineshepherds , when someone came up the driveway they were somewhere behind the barn , I found them a good home and took a malinois|
now when someone came up the driveway , he bit their tires till the car stopped also bit the tyre of the wheelbarrel , and barked all day , I found him a good home
now he has an Ajax offspring from me , low preydrive , high defence , and is happy as can be
by Red Sable on 02 February 2012 - 20:24
|"They are not defending their handler, just looking to fight. There is a difference. "|
I'll bet the ones that are fighting to defend the owner and not themselves are few and far between too.
by Bob McKown on 02 February 2012 - 20:45
Duke, it,s all in the dogs preception of the threat.
I like several things you said Jim like "there are some dogs that just like to fight" this is very true it doesnt make them mean or defensive they just like the action and there tuned possible by the genetics to be of this way. I don,t like to see alot of defense in a dog because it tell,s me there preception of threat is very low(in my opinion) It really depends on what everyones description in there own minds of what drive is. I like strong natural aggression. I like to see a dog that not only wants to stop threat that is being applied to it(defense) but after the threat is gone wants to chase it down and kill it and eat it and not share it with anyone.
To much prey drive can lead the dog to being unable to focus which is also very bad. I like the dog to precieve the "man" as the threat or object even in Schutzhund the sleeve,ball, jute, is all just a path to the man the man makes the fight not the object. I think thats where you get the idea of the dog chasing the purse.
This is a good discussion.
by lancegfx on 02 February 2012 - 20:50
|With my first GSD I would say "Yes" but now I completely agree with Duke's posts.|
by Kalibeck on 02 February 2012 - 20:55
|"the German Shepherd that could not give a crap about bring a ball back fifty times but sure would go through fire and broken glass, take a bullet and still keep coming to protect the one they are bonded with. There are dogs like that and they are one in a million and getting more rare all the time." |
Got one of those.....! Wish she would have reproduced herself....not so sure of my other dogs....maybe Beckett would defend, he certainly is a deterent; Wolfie would if he really thought there was a threat. My pups....both totally laid back, probably show you where the electronics & silverware was, LOL! But I think this attitude was mostly because we had Kali, & she was completely, naturally dominant & in control. She was on duty 24/7, & her 2 girls that we have still think of her as the leader. Will one of them, or Beckett, step up once she's gone to the bridge? I don't know. Probably not, as they've spent their whole lives depending on her. And she's for real. Even debilitated as she is right now, she's still got that attitude.
And she always has been suspiscious of everyone. If we said it was OK, then she would relax, but still watched like a hawk. And she had a sense of humor. We had a guy here that was trying to buy a vehicle from us, we didn't really trust him, Kali REALLY didn't trust him, but since we told her to, she just platzed there & watched him. But when he got ready to leave, (he was a little annoyed we wouldn't drop the price as low as he wanted) Kali got up & calmly walked over & LIFTED her leg on him! Just a squirt or 2, but I thought that was funny. She's been known to hump some one she wasn't allowed to bite, too. Totally dominant female. jackie harris BTW-she's GSL!