German Shepherd Dog > The importance of titling before breeding (13 replies)
The importance of titling before breeding
by Blitzen on 01 February 2012 - 13:46
by workingdogz on 01 February 2012 - 16:02
Not basing this only on Schutzhund,
that just happens to be our sport of choice.
We have like most, dabbled in Ring (too few clubs,
way more infighting/politics than you can imagine).
AKC obedience, tracking, anything.
Training and then titling will
show you weak areas and strengths in your dog.
If you never leave the safety of your backyard,
you will never know your real dog.
Get the dog out on the road, travelling to venues,
hotel stays, road 'noise', different fields/buildings etc.
Some people don't travel well, some dogs don't either.
So much about titling a dog in some arena will
open your eyes, at least if you want them to be
by loujolly on 01 February 2012 - 16:16
|One thing about titling that not many people think about, is if you breed to an older dog that has competed in schutzhund for several years, and stayed sound and healthy, you know that his body can handle all the training and impacts etc. Hopefully this means that you are breeding to physical strength. Also means that he has the mental capacity to handle the stress, travel etc that a long competitive career entails.|
by BlackthornGSD on 01 February 2012 - 16:29
Yes. This. Exactly. DO SOMETHING with your GSD to learn about him/her, to see your dog in a variety of situations, to prove to yourself and others that your dog can be a useful dog.
by macrowe1 on 01 February 2012 - 17:04
|I'm all for it. A lot of people have posted adds for their pups lately and the sole selling point is just it's so-and-so's grandpup, or it's V or VA in it's line, and you look and the first one or two generations aren't titled. it's kind of like they're relying on the name of the dog in the previous generations. But how do I know that your dog inherited the qualities that I liked in it's grandsire or dam?|
by hunger4justice on 01 February 2012 - 17:10
|Absolutely a MUST. The only rare exception I would make is a working dog (military, police, etc) that comes from a long line of working titled dogs if I know the character and courage of the working dog. I also need to see a healthy dose of BSPs and WUSV competitors in the lines because I don't know if a club level SchH3 means a whole lot when it comes to courage.|
by 1GSD1 on 01 February 2012 - 17:21
|There is an issue in the breed that is similar to SIDS in babies, but I believe most dogs drop dead from it by 12 months of age or while under anesthesia. I don't recall the name of the disorder nor that it is found by a routine examine.
Pannus can show up rather young, but it should still be obvious to a breeder that something is not right, dog goes to vet, vet confirms pannus. Dog is pulled from breeding. Agree cerf in itself doesn't help here.
vWd is something not many screen for. Should be done early because the number goes up with age so a low normal at 3 or after heat cycles may not be accurate. Vaccines may play a factor. Dr. Jean Dodds is the expert.
There are issues, not as many as in other breeds but they are there.
Why don't you ask a vet, especially the one who owns the VA2 NASS dog. She lists what he has been checked for:
and if you go under comments, she gives her opinion on why he's not screened for DM.
Can't get any better, a vet who owns and breeds the breed.
by 1GSD1 on 01 February 2012 - 17:26
|Oops, put this under the wrong link. will copy and paste it there.|
You guys are too fast with the threads, went out and back in and hit the wrong one.
by Red Sable on 01 February 2012 - 17:52
OK, to play devils advocate:
I'm curious though, to those of you who have achieved titles, were your dogs worthy of them in your honest opinion? Were they worthy of breeding?
by workingdogz on 01 February 2012 - 18:02
|Worthy of the titles we earned, honestly? Yes.|
We don't hand pick judges, but there are some we will
not trial under because they tend to be "Santa Claus" types.
We are actually of the mindset we want to earn our points.
Have been surprised at times when we got more points than
we thought we should have, but any 'gifts'? No.
While most will agree a title is not the
end all for breed selection, it is a starting
point. I bet if you knew now what you didn't
know then, you likely would not have purchased
the dogs that didn't turn out.
And then we come to the honesty factor in humans,
if the seller is not honest, not much more you can
do. But, if you do your research, you can find out
alot about the actual dog/dogs in a breeding and
the seller before you buy.
by BlackthornGSD on 01 February 2012 - 19:13
|Some of the progeny I have bought from all Schutzhund titled dogs have not been breed worthy IMO, nervy and lack of courage being the biggest issues I've seen. I don't even have to take them off of the property to see it.|
Progeny are not the same as parents. If they were, we'd all have world champions. :)
Sometimes the parent alone is fine--maybe a bit sharp, but "well within tolerances" -- that is, very workable and usable and even good or excellent. But when bred, the breeding partner may bring things that you didn't expect and the resulting progeny *do* have problems.
by GSDPACK on 01 February 2012 - 20:32
|Going for titles opens up the eyes of the handler/owner of the dog. It is all about accepting the good and bad about the worked animal.|
There is no such thing as a superdog! Every dog has some issues and if the handler is not honest about them, they will come and kick him/her in the ass with the next generation.
That is why the first question I always ask when I aquire about a puppy, why the breeding. I like the pedigree of course that is why I called but now TELL ME ABOUT THE DOG! Described to me how your dog deals with stress, new environment and a hard helper, has the dog done muzzle work, suit bites? Tell me how the dog deas with crappy tracking surface and how it changes the approach to the work done. Talk to me how easy or difficult it was for you to teach the dog retrieves...
if you don't have these simple answeres for me, you don't know your dog... I dont care if people get titled animals, but make sure you put your hands on them, meaning, go and get to know them, learn how they work for you and take them herding, to agility, to a club to do some work, maybe even put additional titles on them..... get to know you dog in and out..
There are breeders who employ trainers to either continue with the training or maintain the training and that is the least a good breeder should do! Maintain and/or improve!
by judron55 on 01 February 2012 - 21:11
A title is just that...earned or not. While titles show the dedication of the handler...it shows me little about the dog. I want to see the dog at home....on a walk....left in the car...in a dark building...I work to many dogs to let a title influence my opinion on a dog...I know breeders who don't compete in schutzhund that produce excellent dogs. The officers on the street will attest to that.
by workingdogz on 01 February 2012 - 23:28
Therein lies the major difference.
You are out there working dogs almost if not,
daily, and have/are titling dogs,
so it's a little different for someone like yourself
that see's/works so many different dogs.