German Shepherd Dog > Do these showlines carry the black recessive gene? (11 replies)
Do these showlines carry the black recessive gene?
by watsongsd on 24 January 2012 - 19:54
|I saw this ad, http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/classifieds/147956.html, and was wondering how you would get a mostly showline black dog. Here is the pedigree, http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=683290, Her paternal grandsire Faraon came from a showline male who I doubt carries black since he lacks the penciling on his toes or tar heels. The the bitch's dam is showline and again I doubt she carries the black recessive gene. Is it possiblt that my assumption of most showlines lacing the black gene correct?|
by Ibrahim on 24 January 2012 - 20:58
|Your assumption is correct. This Russian breeder managed to produce GSDs with DOMINANT solid black genes, you can see a solid black mated with a black/tan having 2 b/t genes but yet resulting offspring are solid blacks, how he did it beats be !!!|
by Vermont Lady on 24 January 2012 - 21:37
|I wouldn't trust any breeder in Russia! Don't go sending him your $$ - you'll probably never get a dog or will get some other culled animal.|
Black is recessive - hoping that the reason you are attracted to this dog isn't it's color.? He mentions dog is rated excellent.....how? sho rating? he doesn't say so. H/E Xrays wouldn't be trustworthy either.
I have a black working line male but wouldn't go out of my way seeking a black - due mostly because of how overhead sun impacts them.
by Vermont Lady on 24 January 2012 - 21:54
|Please pardon my outspken negative remarks but I do not trust any russian breeder - especially one seeking to sell to an american...we are easy prey you know.|
I wished to add that I doubt these dogs are actually related to each other as depicted. I suspect they have interbred a working line visual black dog into the lines. Bet if you did a DNA test, you would find this. He is hoping someone will buy this pup cause of it being 'exotic' looking.
My black male looks almost like his pup.......you could easily inter breed him and have the dogs look like showlines.
Or.....dye....I used to see this done with horses a lot!
by trixx on 24 January 2012 - 22:00
|i do believe that this pedigree is not true , as there is no way this dogs mother has any black in her lines, the only thing i figure is this is not the pedigree of this dog. and the dads side seems a little strange how the black just poped out without having any black father back in the pedigree.|
i do believe this is a false pedigree and probly not the parents of this dog.
by watsongsd on 24 January 2012 - 22:09
|I got a pm about this website, http://www.animalgenetics.us/Canine/KLocus.htm concerning the dominant black gene Ibrahim mentioned. I have to go out and can't read it but there it is, maybe it's possible the pedigree is true. I wish I hadn't posted the ad since it wasn't needed to answer the question. It is impossible to know if it's real w/o dna proof of pedigree. ... I guess this is just the panda shepherd deal again then.|
by GSDguy08 on 24 January 2012 - 22:21
|I still don't believe it's true......but with that said, why do show line breeders just go nuts over a possible black show line, or a show line with a mostly black face? Why not just buy a working line with a structure that fits their taste? I don't get it......|
by mfh27 on 24 January 2012 - 23:30
|The idea that a dominant black gene was introduced through the K allele is consistent with the pattern of inheritance. Could it have been a spontaneous mutation? Or maybe introduced from another breed? But at what point is a dog not purebred? A dog 7 generations back provides less than 1% of the genetic material.|
by 1GSD1 on 25 January 2012 - 00:40
|I have seen some IMO gorgeous dogs that are black from ads from Russia. I too thought how in the world can this be true? One side had nothing but German black and red show dogs for generations.|
by BlackthornGSD on 25 January 2012 - 03:05
|In most breeds, the color black is dominant and it is on a different locus than the agouti locus that carries the GSD patterns of sable and saddle and the recessive black.|
The dominant black gene was (mostly?) bred out of the GSD, but it is possible that it either snuck through and stuck around or that it was introduced from another breed (for example, the Belgian Groenendal or the Black Russian Terrier). As someone points out, a breeding to a dominant black non-GSD could have happened 7 or 8 generations back--and now the dogs are beautiful examples of GSDs.
The only thing is--do we want to have this dominant black gene back in the breed? It covers up any sable/saddle and masking genes as well as the richness of the red/brown/tan pigment.
by djc on 25 January 2012 - 23:57
|Well.... I think that it IS remotely possible!|
The dam HAS black in her background through VA Frei de Gugge. Back pretty far but still in there! Didn't do a total search so there may be others?
Sure enough! Here's a bitch in the dam's background that produced a solid black in a different line from the Frei line that I found...http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=14288
Oh gees..... I hate it when I get started... lol I'll post more if I find more...
I had a SL that carried solid black. He went back on Frei also.
by stary_eyed_angel on 26 January 2012 - 01:31
|It's always possible for a recessive to hide in a line. How many times have people seen livers or blues pop up when nothing has been seen of them in 6+ generations? The gene has just been passing down the line but until bred to a carrier it's not going to show up.|
As for dominant black, I actually know three confirmed ones now. Two are from the bloodline (European) and the other I don't know the pedigree on (pet lines). I know the pedigree is correct on the first two for at least two generations but I can't say for sure further back than that and it's likely been in the line longer than two generations (solids for several generations that I know of but not sure how far back - not a pedigree that interests me). I guess it would be pretty easy to miss dominant blacks though considering we just assume a black dog is recessive a/a. It could travel down a line of blacks without anyone thinking anything of it until the dog was bred to a dog that definitely did not carry recessive solid. Not saying that's definitely what happened but it is a possibility to take into consideration.