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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Opinion on Schutzhund prospect.. (79 replies)
by vomtreuenhaus on 17 January 2012 - 21:34 |
| Thank you Clee. Yes I know not to baby him, I just dont know how to go about encouraging him without pretty much babying him..if that makes sense. |
vomtreuenhaus by Hired Dog on 17 January 2012 - 21:40 |
| Ladies and gentlemen...let me interject here and state something that I repeat daily to people I work with and I mentioned in here last night as well in another thread. ALL the love, care, understanding and patience in the world will NOT and CANNOT change genetics. A dog either has it or it does not, end of. If it has it, it can be developed and brought out, if it does not, all you will do is frustrate and question yourself. While the young lady asking this question is indeed young and may not have much experience, there is nothing wrong with "washing" a dog out of a program. Having said that, I will also add that when choosing a new candidate, either have someone with a lot of experience guide you or deal with a breeder you trust implicitly. Choose a dog for the particular sport/discipline you want to do and realize that show and real working dogs often dont mix. |
by clee27 on 17 January 2012 - 21:55 |
| While I understand and agree with your point, I also know many people used genetics as the easy out for their own shortcomings and willingness to put the effort in. Now my opinion is that one of the biggest mistakes people make is to negatively label a dog and then train to that label... many people don't want to take any responsibility for their part in things gone wrong. |
clee27 by Hired Dog on 17 January 2012 - 22:52 |
| Clee 27, that is another thread and it has to do with trainers who may not actually be TRAINERS. Why would anyone spend good money on a candidate that has the genetic potential to reach the Zenith of its discipline is something I will never understand. While I have not seen happen, I believe that it does exist, but, its the pinnacle of stupidity to waste a genetically great dog like that. Again, I believe that is another issue for another thread, but, I understand what you are saying, just not why anyone would do it. |
by vomtreuenhaus on 17 January 2012 - 23:05 |
| Hired Dog, Thank you. Genetically, I believe he has it. I did alot of reasearch in finding him and went to a breeder that helped me find exactly what I wanted. I have just hit a brick wall that I do not know how to get over and move forward with him. He does have insecurities, that I am willing to work with and try and build his confidence. I will go to different trainers and utilize the differing opinions and methods in all, and find something that works for him. I was on here to gather a broader range of advice. So thank you to those that understand and provided me with good information :) |
by hexe on 17 January 2012 - 23:07 |
"The corollary to the development of a puppy's attachment to its surroundings is its detachment from its parent(s). " This quote is from: Sensory, Emotional and Social Development of the Young Dog, by Dr. Joël Dehasse, Behaviorist Veterinarian, Version 1.1 -6 Feb. 97 http://www.nwk9.com/dehasse_pupdev.htm Seven weeks of age is, in truth, too young to remove a pup from it's littermates unless there are some sort of extenuating circumstances--you know, there's a reason why it is not legal to ship puppies under 8 weeks of age. Ideally, pups should remain with their littermates until they are at least 9 weeks of age--those extra two weeks can make a world of difference in the character development of an individual dog when you consider that the neurosystem of puppies remains a work in progress for weeks after their birth... |
by Hired Dog on 17 January 2012 - 23:18 |
| Hexe, with all due respect to your post, it is dead wrong. Beyond weaning the pups, the dam has NOTHING to offer them that is positive, keeping the litter together though has MANY negatives that will come back to haunt us later in life. 6-12 weeks is THE single most crucial socialization period in a dog's entire life. What it will learn/be exposed to then, will affect it for ever. This is THE time to have that puppy bonded to its new owner and exposed to EVERYTHING it will have to deal with in this world. Leaving the pups together will teach them how to be bullies or submissive, depending on their genetic make up. One will bully the others around and they will learn to fear and react aggressively towards other dogs when they grow and the bully will just think that he is IT...not a good idea. Also, this "bite Inhibition" lunacy is not something that happens while the pups are with the litter, its the handler's job to curb it or bring it out, plus, who wants bite inhibition on a sporting/working dog candidate? The pups I have always gotten are 6 weeks or age, max, that way I can instill in them what I want, the behaviors I want to see, bring out drives they will need later in life. By the time they are 12 weeks old, they understand basic obedience, are afraid of nothing environmentally, their prey drive is through the roof and are well on their way to becoming serious working dogs. |
by EchoEcho on 17 January 2012 - 23:29 |
| I guess I don't really understand the problem, you state the following: he has shown some incredible drive, overall confidence and independance, and his conformation is definitely what I'm looking for. Have had him at club a few times and his drive work/bite work is coming along, and he shows great potential. His obedience is awesome, have done bare minimal tracking with him (have gotten advice from many show breeders to start tracking once they know what to do in a showring so they dont have their nose to the ground) If you aren't having a problem with his training then why are you so upset that the dog wants to be with you? What you see as "obsessed" most people see as bond. I personally think it is normal to have a dog follow me around and want to know what I am doing. My shepherds do it all the time. They observe what I am doing and sometimes they even mimic what I am doing. I get a kick out of it and it is one of the reasons why I love the breed so much. When I get ready in the morning they are in the bathroom, then the kitchen, etc. They are at my feet sleeping right now. The breed typically builds a strong bond with an owner/handler and wants to be with them. GSD are extremely pack oriented animals and when they are separated from their pack it isn't natural to them. It is little wonder it causes him stress and he is overly interested in you, in his world he never knows when he is going to get to spend time with you. If this isn't a behavior you are willing to live with I would suggest finding the dog a new home. This is something that is hardwired in a GSD and you would have better luck teaching him to fly then to try and teach him that he only needs himself. My best advise to you would be to find this dog a home where he can have the family/pack he wants and you can co-own this dog and train him and use him as a stud as you like. I am so confused by your post. You really sound all over the board. Are you trying to describe separation anxiety? Is your dog fearful? Maybe it is because you are having a hard time putting into words exactly what it is you don't like about his behavior. How much socializing did you do with this puppy? Did you take him everywhere, go everywhere publicly dogs are allowed, get him around children, elderly, other dogs (lots of other dogs), other animals, wheelchairs, loud noises, fireworks, etc.? Locking a dog in a kennel except for an occasional walk in the park or trip to the pet store is the worst thing you can do for a dog that isn't confident. You say that his Mother behaved the same way so this sounds genetic and is going to take a LOT of work to overcome. Probably not the best dog for breeding. As far as being "obsessed" with your other dog, this puppy is 8 months old. This is the time where they are working on securing their rank in the pack. It may be that he sees your other dog as having the highest "rank" in your dog pack so it would be natural for him to want to spend time with her. He may see this as his future mate. Also, alpha dogs tend to not pay attention lower ranking dogs so ignoring him probably isn't going to make you "problem" go away. Since you seem to like to discard dogs that aren't exactly what you want at the time I would be more than happy to take this dog off your hands. He sounds perfect to me and I would take him in a heartbeat. I think he would be very happy here at my feet. |
EchoEcho by k9winnie on 17 January 2012 - 23:46 |
| he sounds like he is very insecure right now - hopefully as he matures he will gain more confidence. I would make sure that you are not inadvertently praising his insecurity - a common mistake. Perhaps since this happens at home, you need to have a qualified trainer come there to observe him and suggest some strategies to help him. And it sounds to me as though he is begging for something to do - so I personally would work him more in tracking and obedience - all over motivational methods of course. Give his brain something constuctive to do. That said, sorry, but it is true that some of this may very well be genetic - unfortunately no matter how careful the breeding, there is confidence lacking in a lot of the high lines these days - and even in some so called working lines - a lot of people are mistaking hectic and/or nervy behaviors for drive. Further, even if the parents of your pup were quite capable in their work, doesn't mean they can produce those traits - may have been a combination of great training and experienced handling. And by the way, I have been breeding GSDs for over 27 years, started in high lines, changed to working lines as high lines began to lose some of their desire for real work. That said, I don't believe in breeding workiing lines that are butt ugly and extremely lacking in conformation either - these extremes are the reason the GSD is in trouble now genetically. |
by trixx on 18 January 2012 - 00:04 |
| well your pup does sound very insecure, he also sounds very excited when he sees you, it sounds to me he loves you. i would say to heavly socialize him. the fear he shows at the pet store is from not being socialize. i had a male pup that was scared of eveything and i socialize him very well his first year, he turned out fine and is a very stable comforident boy now. if you want him to detach from you a little bit i would say to send him off to a friend or boarding kennel for a few weeks so he can gets use to other people. if he has the drive you say he may need to work some of it off, with some of the issues. how much time do you give him on burning off his energy and drive? |
trixx by vomtreuenhaus on 18 January 2012 - 00:29 |
| Echo, I appreciate the offer, but he stays. Because of the potential I see in this dog, really the only reason he would go anywhere would be if hips/elbows/DM testing come back not so good. Other than that, he has it I just need to find ways to bring out in him what I want. Its not the fact that he loves me/wants to be with me that frustrates me...Its his lack of confidence in himself. When I let him out of the kennel alone in the morning, i "love all up on him" and let him spaz out all over me, then I grab my tools and clean the kennel...it frustrates me that he will sit outside the kennel and not go "do his thing" ie poop/pee, or go sniff around at the new smells of the morning..or hell, go play with the chickens! (he likes to herd them and gets great joy in it when tehy do what he wants) He will literally sit outside the kennel, his whole body shaking, will occasionally lay down, with a ridiculous amount of anxiety waiting for me to turn around and let him spaz on me again. Trust me, I LOVE the bond he has with me, I just want to see him having more confidence in himself. When I walk into a room with my bitch, she presents a very alert, aware, courageous, and powerful "I got this" attitude. She will own any situation and have control of it. She has an incredibly clear mind, and so much confidence in herself, she is what I see as a "serious" bitch. She loves me, gets joy in playing fetch and going for runs with me, laying on the bed with me etc, but she is no where near as obsessed with me as he is. I can let her out in the morning, she jumps on me and says goodmorning, then goes and does her thing all over the yard, returning only to happily jump into the kennel ebcause she knows i'm done cleaning. Granted, she is almost 8 years old, and completely trained/raised in a different way (i dont know really how she was raised, she was imported from the Netherlands fully titled etc) Where with him, he seems to be overly obsessive. More so than ive experienced with my other dogs/shepherds. I was simply asking how i would help build the confidence in himself, I want him to be able to have control of any situation, and feel confident, feel like "its okay Ma' i got this". Yes i KNOW he is young, i KNOW hes slow to mature at this point, I just want to know what I can do to help bring that confidence in himself forward and be less dependant on "you got this one ma?". He was strictly a "house pup" for about 4 months, except when I was at work he would be out in the kennel, but when I was home/at night he was in the house. Learning to crate train, house train, get used to weird noises/other animals/stairs/build bonds etc. For about 2+ months hes been strictly outside, except during the rotational in the house times, as this was when I started seriously training him. I train everyday by myself and have club on the weekend. Whether I do short obedience sessions, tug work/aggitation work, or bare minimal tracking, or even if its just traffic/civil stuff like going to new places or walks on the road to get used to cars etc. When we are at club, he does not act all obsessed with me UNLESS i touch him. When he's "fighting" the helper and winning, and i'm told to gently pat his side and tell him good, he instantly releases the tug and turns around and spazzes out on me. Now we use verbal praise instead of patting. Its just hard because like I said, i've not had one SO into me before, I dont know whether MORE time with him would "calm his nerves", or less time with him would help calm him when hes around me. Its frustrating just because I dont know which way to go with him in a training aspect. |
by macrowe1 on 18 January 2012 - 00:57 |
Ok, just my opinion. You seem to be giving up on them when they don't do exactly what you want. I agree a lot with LMH. you're seemingly mad at the young dog for desiring your attention after being left in a kennel and being away from you. Nothing that you're describing says this dog is overly obsessed with you. These so-called temperment issues seem to be repeating with your dogs. One big problem I see: "my dogs are usually only out for training", so you don't take them out and let them play with you? I don't understand? It seems that your expectations are that a SL dog will be the best at both Working and Show and if its not or not easily fixed their gone. Amen Detroit!!!! Rehome him to me. I'll gladly take him in. |
macrowe1 by Hired Dog on 18 January 2012 - 01:09 |
| My last post on this topic/thread. "When it comes to working dogs, depend on what you see, not on what you would like to see". Have a great evening. |
by vomtreuenhaus on 18 January 2012 - 01:11 |
| macrowe, "only out for training" as stated in a later post by myself, is an EVERY day thing, whether it be obedience, tug, socialization, etc. They come out to play fetch, do show ring work, and ROTATE in the house, one week one will have my bedroom with me, one week another will. They come out quite frequently, as they DO have drive and need things to do. I dont just take them out and expect to sit at the table and read the paper, theyd go nuts. I take them out to go off and do things with them. Did i not state I'm trying, willing, and looking for advice on how to help this male in this particular aspect, the aspect of self confidence? If I was going to "giove up on him and get rid of him" I would not be here, sitting at the computer for some reason having to explain myself to you people and gather advice and try new things with him, he'd have been gone. And you say "all my dogs" When he is the only one with this behavior. The other bitch that showed a (to ME) weakness in temperament, I placed. Where are you getting the fact that all my dogs are placed due to temperament issues? I really dont even know why I bothered posting here, after lurking for over a year and seeing how you people rip apart genuine people TRYING to get legitimate advice. |
by vomtreuenhaus on 18 January 2012 - 01:12 |
| And im not mad at him, im frustrated because hes recently shown a serious infatuation with me, and an insecurity in his own self confidence that he never had before. I am frustrated because I dont understand what I can do further to help him gain confidence. |
by Chaz Reinhold on 18 January 2012 - 02:14 |
| Have you kicked his ass lately? |
Chaz Reinhold by vomtreuenhaus on 18 January 2012 - 02:24 |
| What do you mean? Like disciplined him? No he really has never done anything in need of serious correction. He responds really well to the "ah ah" noise if he jumps on the counter or something silly that i dont want him doing. Other than that, I've corrected him once for reacting aggresively to another dog (and by that I mean I scruffed him quickly, said no, and released him and he was fine). |
by Chaz Reinhold on 18 January 2012 - 02:39 |
| I agree with Hired Dog. Sounds like a shitter. |
by Chaz Reinhold on 18 January 2012 - 02:40 |
by hexe on 18 January 2012 - 02:41 |
| HiredDog wrote: The pups I have always gotten are 6 weeks or age, max, that way I can instill in them what I want, the behaviors I want to see, bring out drives they will need later in life. By the time they are 12 weeks old, they understand basic obedience, are afraid of nothing environmentally, their prey drive is through the roof and are well on their way to becoming serious working dogs. With all due respect to you, HiredDog, that's been YOUR experience...but you must consider whether or not your skills are at the same level as the average person's. It's been my observation that few people have a sound enough understanding of dogs to not inadvertantly create 'issues' of various types in pups obtained at less than 8 weeks of age. |
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