German Shepherd Dog > SV website announcement Team Marlboro Jaguar (142 replies)
by JudyK on 27 January 2012 - 22:33
|It would certainly appear that Jan is being held to a higher standard than 99% of the people who post on this board. Over and over people post assumptions and are not sanctioned for their views. You can go to almost any thread on this board and find assumptions that are far more harmful than what Jan has posted and nothing is ever said. |
What Jan is bringing to our attention is information that breeders need in order to make informed decisions for the future of the breed. When transparency disappears we are all the losers. I applaud Jan for his courage despite the backlash he encounters when bringing new information to those who care.
Ulli, you are correct that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what the outcome of this will be. As you said, it's right there in the SV rulebook.
by Oskar1 on 27 January 2012 - 22:55
Jan did go overboard with some things, yup, I believe a few posts back I said that. And yes , you are right, Jan said something to that point, what 1, 1 1/2 years ago ? Do all posts get deletet where peopel do go overboard a little ? Answer that for yourself !
Pretty sad, when the blind is leading the blind - yup the fact you had at hand was an official Mail from the Swedish Breed Club, this mail was presented and offert to you for verification. You had the choice to say - ok I will leave the official part up to warn & inform peopel, but I will take down the "assumptions" down - nope you choose the route to delete everything, explaining in your first post you did so due to the fact that you were angry about Jan. Now this sounds a little different. In your first post you claimed all this was solmly based on your decision, now it reads all admins are weary of Jan's postings....
Nope Sir, fact is, you had proof at hand, letter of the kennel club, it was offered to you for verification, you just decided to ignore it.
It would be nice if some would have the guts to admit they screwed up - but hey, it aint a perfect world, is it ? And after all, it's only our breed that is taken to the cleaners, is it ?
by GSD Admin on 27 January 2012 - 22:58
|It is always easy to second guess the moderators and no matter what we seem to find ourselves on the wrong side of members.|
Again, I based my decision on the past false reports and what appeared to be hearsay on an investigation that the SV said was not complete.
I make split second decisions and I go with the best information I have at that time, I ride my gut feelings--right or wrong.
I surely would love for some of the naysayers to try this for a week or two. I don't think most could handle it.
by GSD Admin on 27 January 2012 - 23:05
The letter also said the investigation was not complete and Jan would hear back when done. At that time the investigation was not done.
I already said I go with what I have at the time. Am I going to make an apology--nope--because I make decisons as they happen with the best info at the time. and not info that comes out weeks later.
My offer stands to anyone--if you think you can do better--here ya go.
by Oskar1 on 27 January 2012 - 23:40
|So you based your decision on facts ?|
At the time Jan postet, the SV had no ongoing investigation - get your facts straight.
The SV came out with their warning 3-4 days later then Jan did !
The Swedish Kennel Club had proof that there has been fraud with the x-rays, that there were 2 different dogs x-rayed. That was fact enough for the Swedish Kennel Club to inform breeders and to continue their investigation.
But aparantly not enough facts for the so well informed admins of PDB ! Man, can it get any better ?
When the SV posted their warning, it was based on the information given by the swedish kennel club - enough facts for the SV, but not for PDB ?
2011-12-28 Jan warned on his Blog the first time
2011-12-29 Jan postet on PDB
2011-12-29 Jan informed the SV about what he had found out
2011-12-29 Jans posting was deleted
2012-01-01 SV posted a warning on their HP
2012-01-26 SV posted that the findings of the Swedish Kennel Club are true, and that there were 2
different dogs x-rayed. The ED 2 Grade from Sweden is legitimit.
Oh well, and by the way, when Jan posted on PDB he put that also on his Blog. Right there and then he expressed his concern that he thought it would be deletet from PDB rather fast - and so it was !
Judy, thanks - it is a disgrace what is happening here. I did not look into it, to the fact of how many breedings Juguar and his offsprings had sofar, but I see a lot of grief ahead of us.
by GSD Admin on 27 January 2012 - 23:53
|Swedish kennel club--SV. My mistake.|
I see, I need to be perfect and someone who is in the KNOW can be wrong multiple times and now I am an uniformed PDB admin. More cut downs to admins. *sigh*
Okay you win. I feel bad for all those puppies I caused to be bred because I removed something that I felt was not complete. Almost like the people doing these breedings would check in here to make sure it was okay.
by Dog1 on 27 January 2012 - 23:54
No one doubts the content of the letter or the situation exists. Once the issue was posted, Jan went on to post the results of the SV hip ratings where were determined to be 0. What is 0 in the SV system? Apparently 0 was in Jan's mind a passing score where the results of the Swedish hips were not. Can you tell me how the Swedish hip score compared to the SV rating of 0? Was the posted information even accurate?
Jan went on to say the owner by name would be disciplined? Is this fair? That may very well be the case but isn't it proper to allow someone to present their argument before someone jumps to conclusions about a person's reputation and slanders them on an international forum?
All the progeny will be banned? Has this determination been made by the SV? Maybe they will but until they do, to make this statement is not responsible. There have been other similar situations where problems such as this were addressed. Nero Nobachtal for example. Rumor in the beginning was Nero's offspring would be banned. Turns out they were not. If Jaguar looses his hip rating and consequently his breed survey would he not still be a German Shepherd and able to register litters with white papers? His offspring would not be from a performance breeding and they could not go VA. We have seen examples of this also such as Ulk Arlett. Maybe the SV will just change the papers from pink to white? Maybe the SV will request another set of X rays? Who knows what the SV will do. Until the SV decides, it's premature to make accusations, draw conclusions and present them as fact.
Remember the thread about Zara and all the accusations about the breeder and the corrupt SV? Jan certainly jumped to numerous conclusions and accusations on that thread. In the end it was determined it was the same dog and there was a difference of professional opinion. Zara went on to go VA again. No one was ruining the breed. No one was corrupt. No one was selling VA dogs and making money. Jan was doing what Jan has done for years,,,, taken a thread of truth and added his own dramatic accusations as truth based on conjecture and his track record isn't that good.
Some people fall for the displaced logic. We have a letter. Here is the letter. Since the letter exists, everything I say about the letter and the ramifications of the letter are true. 1+1 equals 2 and because 1+1 equals 2, that means 2+2 equals 3. That's the type of logic Jantie uses in their arguments.
by Oskar1 on 28 January 2012 - 00:09
dont feel too bad now, we all screw up every so often. Furthermore I believe nobody would only relay on the PDB to get a breeding done, or base his/hers decision to breed only on PDB, but it sure would make me look deeper into some things.
The main thing here is the fact that fraud was committed on a scale I have not encounterd before, and it needs to stop ! This will only work if ALL are pulling on the same string - we need to get these criminals out of our breed, and yes it will get ugly.
Jan did get a lot started, therefore he has my outmost respect. He invested more time the last few years in investigating, then many of us on the trainingfield !
Lets cut the crap - let's rather work together. I can assure you, if you would have aproached Jan and would have asked for that letter, he would have send it over in a heart beat - but he sure does get pissed when challanged !! Other than that, he is actually a nice, hard working guy.
Anyhow, I am going back under my stone - see you !
by Louis Donald on 28 January 2012 - 00:17
|My observation of all of the comments made to date is that when you remove the emotive material the core concerns and sentiments being expressed are all pretty much the same especially in regard to how the SV will deal with this matter. With all due respect to those sincere and idealistic individuals who are within the SV and who are doing the right thing, from my perspective this concern relates to its transition from the highly idealistic, moralistic and disciplined days of Dr Rummel.|
My suggestion to Jantie to chill out was made in a constructive way in so far as the point had been made and any further inflammatory pushing of it could lessen the case being put forward. Speaking in general terms this often happens with people [ me included ] who are very passionate about the breed and sometimes push a point they believe in so hard that they start to loose supporters.
I see a question put regarding why would someone who bought Harley X Ray the father? Putting aside that the matter is yet to be worked through by the SV and at the end of the day, like it or not, that is the only authority that can make a meaningful ruling, unfortunately money is always at the core of things such as this and the higher the ranking of a dog [ male ] at the Sieger Show in the Open class the greater the value of the dog - this is when the 'really serious money' comes into play - you need to look forward to the Sieger Show in 2012 to get your answer as to why this would have been done.
Regardless of this particular matter I know everyone who has contributed to this thread is very concerned for the breed and where it is going in Germany and on that score I am sure there is agreement between us all. I made this point in the article I wrote on the 2011 Sieger Show.
by Oskar1 on 28 January 2012 - 00:23
I am done....you said it, we or better Jan had that letter. Aparantly you deemed that letter as not beeing enough proof aswell - well it turns out that this was true in the the end.
Sadly enough, it is apropriat to question everything going on in our club, as there are to many "money makers" "dealers" & brokers in our "Hobby Breed", they are not in it for the wellbeing of our breed - they are in it for the money. And when money comes into place, greed takes over, when there is greed, there is no room for caring for a single animal. It is more like in life stock breeding - if the animal is not productive anymore, or generates no more income it is replaced.
by GSD Admin on 28 January 2012 - 00:44
I fight fraud on this site on a daily basis. I keep pushing the site owner to find ways to fight fraud in the ads, as I see this as a huge problem for foreign breeders and buyers alike. It does not take many people getting scammed out of thousands on fraudulent ads to begin to really not trust the ads or for that matter buying overseas.
I am human and I make mistakes everyday, I try to always learn something from those mistakes but sometimes the lessons pass me by, on this busy site. I will say this, had I to do this over I would have probably made the same decisions with the info that was present. Whether wrong or right--I still have to make those decisions. It doesn't mean I don't feel for the people who were frauded. It does not mean that I support the fraudster. It does not mean I don't care about the dogs. All it means is I had to make the decision. BTW, I do not have an email account for PDB. If someone ever needs to pass on a document--they need to contact me by PM to find out how that is done.
I have no doubt Jantie is a hard working man obviously with plenty of passion for what he believes. I still have decisions to make with the limited info available and I honestly try to make the best decisions I can. The main reason I brought the PMs up was to show I can't communicate in private with someone who is going to post private communuications on their website. So, really for me to try and communicate with Jantie is futile.
by Videx on 28 January 2012 - 01:19
|Very good post dog1, I wholeheartedly agree. The moderator was correct in deleting the posts which made very serious speculations about future decisions of the SV. They may on this occasion turn out to be correct, however that does not mitigate the wrong done by those serious speculations at the time they were made. Jantie makes numerous speculative allegations which never come true, or partially come true. That does not in any way justify speculative allegations about any named dog or person. Hindsight is a fine thing, but no one has foresight, they can only assume or express an opinion, and they must great care with such assumptions when people are named or dogs are named. To make an assertion as if FACT of your opinion or speculative assumption will always be wrong.|
by SitasMom on 28 January 2012 - 01:49
|from the SV site http://www.schaeferhund.de/site/ |
Important Information! (Supplement to Information "News 01/12")
For this reason, the findings in Sweden awarded "average ED" to be regarded as binding and the findings accorded in Germany must be deprived. Consequently, the "V" rating from last year's SV-Bundessiegerzuchtschau and Ankoerung be disallowed for the males.
About the possible ramifications of this process, we will inform you immediately.
by Slamdunc on 28 January 2012 - 02:19
Wow! Ulli, thank you coming back to clarify this and clear it up. It would appear Jante was right all along regarding this. Ulli, you are a true gentleman.
by Videx on 28 January 2012 - 12:35
|Clearly there are different levels of "comprehensive understanding"|
by Jantie on 28 January 2012 - 14:00
I thank my friends for their moral support in my battle to clean the Augean stables. I appreciate it big time!
by paulo on 29 January 2012 - 13:49
|Whenever there is a lot of money involved there will be people that find a way to cheat the system, I was told years ago the biggest UK kennel had a long coat with a very low hip score, this dog was X-rayed many times at different vets and each time he had a new name.|
by pier93 on 30 January 2012 - 00:18
thanks for the informations
by Silbersee on 30 January 2012 - 19:02
I just skimmed through this continuous thread and felt compelled to answer you (and not Jantie who only comes out to attack me and has nothing of merit to use against me).
I did not want to use the owner's name, but you did - so that is fine. Mrs. Lindner certainly had the right to ask for a refund (not compensation of occured medical fees as this was her choice to make) and received an adequate amount as would be outlined under German Consumer Protection Law (Verbraucherschutz). It remotely reminds of a certain situation regarding a dog named Indiana! Anyway, this is not what caused me to comment on this situation earlier. When reading through Mrs. Lindner's communication with the SV, a level headed person can only wonder how patient the SV has been with her and her "quest" to do something about the fact that her dog was diagnosed with HD. The SV did what she wanted them to do - put a breed ban in her papers! They further took care of the paper trail (it might be a little confusing for outsiders as obviously the breeder had a broker or other person who owned the litter)! Mrs. Lindner accused the breeder of violating the "Tierschutz" (Animal Protecion Act) because he dared to offer her a replacement. She accused him of wanting her to put Charlotte to death since she could not very well take on another dog. Further, she demanded that the SV will change the "Genetics". When they pointed out that the previous x-rays could not be used as the dog was not old enough, she accused the SV of not caring enough about genetic diseases in our breed. When she finally complied and got the dog re-xrayed at the appropriate age (after all regulations are there for all to uphold and not to be used at will), she got uptight when the results were not published fast enough. The SV (ever so patiently) explained that the deadline to publish was already expired when the x-rays were submitted and that she would be able to find it in the next edition. They finished their last correspondence very politely by telling her that this would be the last reply to her. For anybody who reads German, the whole exchange is published on Jantie's blog. In my opinion, Mrs. Lindner's tone was very inappropriate and accusatory. She even dragged the hernia the puppy came with into the exchange. In addition, she had to warn that the mother of her puppy was meanwhile sold to the U.S. and had produced more worrysome offspring. I wonder how the new owner would feel after reading it on Jantie's blog.
Ulli, I do not know what happened to you since I have not communicated with you for a while, but I certainly was surprised to find you mentioned on Mr. Jantie's blog. Whatever it is, I am sorry and hope that you are not too bitter. Maybe, one of theses days we have a chance to catch up.
As to the ongoing situation with Jaguar: Yep, somebody was caught cheating (again). I hope that the SV will be able to do something about it. If it was in Denmark (or Sweden), the ball will be in the court of the respective kennel clubs. For anybody who is naive to think that this is new, look at the past. Cheating has always occured (even during the reigns of Martin, or Rummel, or Funk and von Stephanitz). The chance of exposure was remote at best, however. Back then, there was no re-xraying or DNA or even elbow certifications. I want to (sadly) bet that a lot of these pedigrees are fraud which are out there. Vaguely, a sterile top producer from the past comes to mind - everybody knew about it but there was nothing to be done. Evidence is needed to prove fraud!
As to worrying about Harley: I mentioned it before and do it again. If the Swedish Kennel Club outlines in their breeding regulations that the parents have to be x-rayed and certified free of ED, only then can he be banned. When reading the announcement by the Danish kennel club, I somehow doubt it. That means that Harley, his certifications of HD and ED, his titled and ratings will all stay in place, as this was achieved on his merit, not on his sire's. The SV can only ban Jaguar's German offspring, but not the foreign one. For a level headed person, this is a normal conclusion. It will be every breeder's and puppy owner's decision to make if they want to use Harley or buy his offspring.
People also need to stop blaming forum owners, administrators and moderators for deleting posts. They can be held legally responsible for anything that is published. Naturally, they have to be careful and should not be blamed for being biased. GSD admin and the other mods are doing an admirable job here as this forum used to be a free for all! Good job, you guys!!
by Videx on 30 January 2012 - 23:15
|We should very carefully consider the SV 2nd announcement on this matter (below). Especially when you read the "Silbersee" comment above which includes the following:|
"As to worrying about Harley: I mentioned it before and do it again. If the Swedish Kennel Club outlines in their breeding regulations that the parents have to be x-rayed and certified free of ED, only then can he be banned. When reading the announcement by the Danish kennel club, I somehow doubt it. That means that Harley, his certifications of HD and ED, his titled and ratings will all stay in place, as this was achieved on his merit, not on his sire's. The SV can only ban Jaguar's German offspring, but not the foreign one. For a level headed person, this is a normal conclusion. It will be every breeder's and puppy owner's decision to make if they want to use Harley or buy his offspring."
SV 2nd announcement
Important information! (Addendum to news item „Aktuell 01/12“)
Officials in Sweden have x-rayed the dog „Team Marlboro Jaguar“ (sire of the Sieger in the 18 – 24 months males on the SV-Bundessiegerzuchtschau 2011) for a second time and it was determined that the dogs on the initial and on the second x-ray are identical.
Therefor the result of „mittlere ED“(mid-level ED) that was awarded initially, is to be considered binding and the result that was awarded in Germany must be revoked. For this reason the V-rating awarded on last year’s Siegershow as well as the breed survey for this male have to be revoked.
We will inform you promptly about possible ramifications following this process.