German Shepherd Dog > German Shepherd/Wolf-Shepherd breeding (82 replies)
by wolflady on 11 January 2012 - 00:14
|Thanks Rik Glad to share my experience,|
You never could have made me believe my girl would have ever bit anyone. She was an extremely wonderful girl and was actually a wonderful babysitter and loved small children. It was expressed to us that possibly she had joint problems and the small child placing his hand on her rear and putting pressure caused some pain which caused her aggresion towards the child. The breeder though certainly at the time of the sale led me to believe that this hybrid would make a wonderful pet and for a while yes this was the case yet turned tragic quicker than I could respond and I was standing right next to her and the child. Shocked is all I can say. I am thankful that the child can see, yet he had to endure numerous plastic surgeries. An experience I never want to go through again. And would never knowingly breed a combination of wolf and any type of dog even a shepherd for these reasons. I won't go into detals yet this attack was unbelievably grotesque in nature and I will never forget this experience. Something to think about before breeding to wolves - they are wild animals not pets even when domesticated totally unpredictable in nature.
by Bk2PUR on 11 January 2012 - 01:02
|Thank you windwalker18, wolflady, starrchar, sunsilver, ckc29, redsable and keithgrossman for your input. All very good and will be put to use. I found the information about shyness particulalry interesting. I have noticed some shyness around objects that I found suspicious when I first got her; like the broom for example. She's long since gotten over them, but I felt things like that were likely the result of her or her litter mates being swatted with a broom by the breeder. I was unaware however, that shyness is mostly if not completely genetic. I've read about tests you can perform with new litters to determine certain positive character traits, but I hadn't thought if shyness like this. Good to know. Thank you. Everyone else, thanks for taking the time to reply. I wish your posts were more informative than emotional. Keep the good discard the bad....sorry.|
For what it's worth, I wouldn't breed my German Shepherd without the proper veterinary certifications and testing. Hence my comment about not wanting to contribute to the already rampant desecration of the breed. I also wouldn't jump into the world of dog breeding without at a minimum, consulting with an experienced breeder, trainer and vet first. And no, I wouldn't breed her without puting her through the trials either (Schutzhund); without which she is "a garden variety house pet in terms of breeding" to anyone who knows anything about German Shepherds. And if I knew everything about breeding, or German Shepherds or any dog for that matter, why would I need a forum. I would have no questions, and likely not be interested in spending my time in front of a computer reading about you and your life. I'd be too busy out enjoying my time with my fabulous German Shepherd dogs.
Thank you again to those who replied with good insight. Please to pay any attention to the last few sentences of the previous paragraph, they weren't meant for you.
Oh. I forgot one thing. Yes, Bk2PUR = Back To Pure. If you know anything about German Shepherds, you know the history of breeding the first few generations with Wolf-Dog hybrids. So, as I said, the idea would be to reintroduce some of the blood that helped make the dog great to begin with, PURIFY the trash. This was an explaratory post to gain insight into the feasability of that.
by joanro on 11 January 2012 - 01:17
|The way to purify the trash is is to exclude the "trash" from the gene pool. No need to recreate the wheel.|
by Rik on 11 January 2012 - 01:30
|bk2pur, please post the info on orginal breedings with wolf/dog hybred being a foundation of the GSD. going from memory, but doesn't only leg (of 4) have any traceble linage to wolf, and how many hundreds of years ago is that. Did v.S. do any crosses with the wolf to create the GSD. Don't think so, but please educate me.|
I took you serious/novice at the first post. Not so much now that you continue to insist that the GSD is a wolf hybred. It is not.
by heiko1 on 11 January 2012 - 01:34
|I say do it, better yet if you could find a hyena, that would be even better.|
by Bk2PUR on 11 January 2012 - 01:39
|White German Shepherds:|
I know this is a topic of much controversy. But what is it that determines what makes a dog great. I'm assuming it's pedigree since this is the "Pedigree Database" the members are particular and interested in dogs of a particular padigree or background, hence the breed. If we are talking specifically breed standard, then you should state what organizations standard your abiding by. If you are using the pedigree as a standard then white is about as "pedigree" as they come for german shepherds. See below.
a. A line of ancestors; a lineage.
b. A list of ancestors; a family tree.
2. A chart of an individual's ancestors used in human genetics to analyze Mendelian inheritance of certain traits, especially of familial diseases.
3. A list of the ancestors of a purebred animal.
It is a historical fact that the first registered GSD, Horand von Grafath, had a maternal grandfather (named Grief) who was also this controversial white color.
So this white color variation has been a part of the German Shepherd Dogs genetic pool since the very beginning of this dog breed.
Just like solid black, this white color happens because of a recessive gene that can be hidden for several generations before making an appearance. Both parents must carry the white gene to produce white German Shepherd puppies.
It is very possible that two "normal colored" German Shepherds (carrying the white gene) can produce white puppies in a litter of black and tans or sables, etc. Additionally, white is completely independent of the genes for agouti, two-tone, or solid patterns that occur in colored dogs.So, what are we really talking about.... rules and regulations set by an animal registry used for competitions and for weanies to quote in forums or the true cahracteristics of the breed that make it great. White German Shepherds aren't to "breed standard", mixing a wolf-dog hybrid is bad business...would the German Shepherd as it is now known exist without either?!....
by JRANSOM on 11 January 2012 - 01:40
|Keith, clc29, Sunsilver, Freecalkid, Rik & Windwalker...|
Sorry, if I missed a good one!
BK2pur, you should really rethink your breeding purposes. JMHO. I agree with all of the above.
by Mindhunt on 11 January 2012 - 01:40
|Wolves are still not domesticated and any wolf hybrid will have those same traits. Now I was told a long time ago by a biologist that the more wolf a mix has, the more predictable and stable but still undomesticated and still mostly wolf. |
Like you, my son's babysitter decided to breed her GSD female to a wolf hybrid that was only 25% wolf and she wanted more "true" to GSD standard dogs. Keep in mind her female was very timid and shy at 3 years old as yours seems to be. My son's babysitter sold 3 puppies and kept 2. Her male puppy was fear aggressive and bit her young daughter and was euthanized at 2 years old. One of the pups was shot by a farmer after she escaped the pen and killed a sheep when she was 3 years old. Of the other 3 puppies, only 2 survived because the owners were ultra vigilant and one of them lived alone while the other lived on a large farm and kept his dog penned. This is not to say all hybrids are bad, I had a wolf(75%)/malamute(25%) mix and he was an awesome dog but I really had to work with him. He had some real quirks that I have been told are common to wolves in captivity. I had to watch him, socialize him very carefully and well.
DON'T DO IT
by Bk2PUR on 11 January 2012 - 01:44
The only reason I was asking about Wolf hybrids is because of the literature on them being used in the first breedings that gave the original German Shepherd it's amazing attributes. IF, I breed her, and it's become more of an if every second, it will be Wolf-Shepherd hybrid or German Shepherd...nothing else.
by Bk2PUR on 11 January 2012 - 01:48
|Thank you Mindhunt.|
I'm getting some great replies with great info. And some not so great.
Your's is one of the best so far.
by workingdogz on 11 January 2012 - 01:48
The puppies will only ever be as "good" as the mother.
While I am sure she is a wonderful companion to you,
she does not sound like a breeding dog.
by Rik on 11 January 2012 - 01:48
|"I know this is a topic of much controversy. But what is it that determines what makes a dog great"|
well, that is debatable, but until something better comes along, I'm going to accept the standards set by the founder of the breed and the organization he also founded for the beed.
by Bk2PUR on 11 January 2012 - 01:54
Let's start here. I'm still digging up the original source.
Pedigree info on the FIRST registered German Shepherd dog.
In Europe during the 1800s, attempts were being made to standardise breeds. The dogs were bred to preserve traits that assisted in their job of herding sheep and protecting flocks from predators. In Germany this was practiced within local communities, where shepherds selected and bred dogs that they believed had traits necessary for herding sheep, such as intelligence, speed, strength, and keen senses of smell. The results were dogs that were able to perform admirably in their task, but that differed significantly, both in appearance and ability, from one locality to another.
To combat these differences, the Phylax Society was formed in 1891 with the intention of creating standardised dog breeds in Germany. The society disbanded after only three years due to ongoing internal conflicts regarding the traits in dogs that the society should promote; some members believed dogs should be bred solely for working purposes, while others believed dogs should be bred also for appearance. While unsuccessful in their goal, the Phylax Society had inspired people to pursue standardising dog breeds independently.
Max von Stephanitz, an ex-cavalry captain and former student of the Berlin Veterinary College, was one such ex-member. He believed strongly that dogs should be bred for working.
In 1899, Von Stephanitz was attending a dog show when he was shown a dog named Hektor Linksrhein. Hektor was the product of few generations of selective breeding and completely fulfilled what Von Stephanitz believed a working dog should be. He was pleased with the strength of the dog and was so taken by the animal's intelligence and loyalty, that he purchased it immediately. After purchasing the dog he changed its name to Horand von Grafrath and Von Stephanitz founded the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (Society for the German Shepherd Dog). Horand was declared to be the first German Shepherd Dog and was the first dog added to the society's breed register.
Horand became the centre-point of the breeding programs and was bred with dogs belonging to other society members that displayed desirable traits. Although fathering many pups, Horand's most successful was Hektor von Schwaben. Hektor was inbred with another of Horand's offspring and produced Beowulf, who later fathered a total of eighty-four pups, mostly through being inbred with Hektor's other offspring. In the original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde (SZ), within the 2 pages of entries from SZ #41 to SZ #76, there are 4 Wolf Crosses. Beowulf's progeny also were inbred and it is from these pups that all German Shepherds draw a genetic link. It is believed the society accomplished its goal mostly due to Von Stephanitz's strong, uncompromising leadership and he is therefore credited with being the creator of the German Shepherd Dog.
by Rik on 11 January 2012 - 02:26
That's a great place to start. Which of those dogs exhibited avoidance/cowardice issues (domesticated dog), like the one you want to breed, or avoidance (wolf) issues. Which were white. You want to go back to v.S., why were white dogs excluded from the GSD.
by Bk2PUR on 11 January 2012 - 03:07
I wouldn't characterize myself as a novice. I dont have the time, nor do I have the experience, to raise myself to that level. I only know what I know. And the information I have I've obtained through research and, as shocking as it may seem, by asking people with experience. I am a firm believer in NOT re-inventing the wheel. And the life, or lives in terms of the potential outcome of breeding in ignorance, is too costly to do without making the appropriate contact, getting all the information and knowing before doing. As I've already stated, I am familiar (from my research) with the trials and their significance with respect to the breed "standard". This I researched before I purchased my girl. And if I decided to breed my her, as my intent as previously stated over and over is to further the best qualities of the breed, I wouldn't do so without getting her through at least some stages of the trials. And that would be my intent with her off spring; select those with the best traits to train, show and breed. That plan would obviously be modified if I bred her with a wolf-shepherd hybrid. I don't think I'd be permitted to show a wolf-shepherd hybrid.
Anyways. I tried to make it as clear as possible in my original posting that I am interested in information. The reason being, I am a dog lover, german shepherds in particular, and have been thinking about breeding QUALITY (healthy, well mannered, etc...) German Shepherds. There are few dogs like the German Shepherd. One thing my research showed me is that, because of the populiarity of german shepherd dogs, people are breeding them without knowing what they are doing and destroying everything that makes the dogs great. Even worse, they are creating unwanted, unhealthy animals and that's no better than torture. Reading that wolves were introduced into the blood line at some point early on, I wondered about the feasability of re-introduction; re-invigorate the blood line so to speak. And as I told Heiko1, German Shepherd, Wolf-Shepherd hybrid, or nothing.
I appreciate your input. It has been insightful.
Best of luck.
p.s. My posting with the citations wasn't meant to seem spiteful. You asked, I answered. I hope it wasn't misunderstood.
by joanro on 11 January 2012 - 06:09
|Hyenas are more closely related to badgers and weasels not at all to dogs. Wolves cross better with husky type dogs than GSD's. Temperament is less spooky and trainability is greater with husky breeds. They tend to blend with the wolf rather than conflict as does the GSD and wolf. But there is no need to cross any dog with the wolf, generally the lives of the offspring are short and miserable.|
by freecalkid on 11 January 2012 - 07:26
|Boy did I get an education... " Reading that wolves were introduced into the blood line at some point early on, I wondered about the feasability of re-introduction; re-invigorate the blood line so to speak. " was all she had to say... and ask for opinions... That would have kept this from being so personal about her dog ... but I really learned that standards are so important and I now see a bit more of why. |
There are so many junk shepherds as someone called them... but I rescue those in shelters, rescues, wherever one is in need and keep it and love it and train it. My goal is to allow them to be the best they can be - I don't do competitions, just enjoy them at home.
The idea of wolf-hybred with Shepherd is appalling to me for reasons stated earlier, but people don't want to hear it. It's kind of like people who have children just to "see what they will get" but fail to realize they are now responsible for the offspring. That's where I do the cleanup work... me and thousands who pick up from shelters because that cute GSD puppy didn't act right now at a year old and they are scary.
Good Lord... there are too many now... I guess I'm trying to figure out why she wants to breed - for money or truely to "improve the GSD" or to simply see what she would get ... this doesn't make sense in so many ways. Can't people just be happy and enjoy their beautiful animals ? or go rescue one if you need another... this is sad.
by dexmac on 11 January 2012 - 11:51
YOU MUST BE MAD IF YOU DO THIS ANY ONE WHO DOES SHOULD NOT BE IN THE BREED,THE GERMAN SHEPHERD IS A GREAT BREED OF DOG WE DO NOT NEED ANY CROSS BREEDS IN IT PLEASE DONT DO IT
by laura271 on 11 January 2012 - 12:26
|Wolf-hybrids sound very romantic until you actually meet one. I know a husky/wolf hybrid and she is a wolf in a pink leather collar. Period. I don't have an ego so I will clearly state that the animal scares the sh*t out of me. In my opinion, the person who owns her has the only lifestyle that is suitable to owning a wolf hybrid- living as an itinerant tree planter and doing other odd jobs in very, very remote wilderness locations in the Canadian north. Take the time to talk to several wolf hybrid owners and see just how difficult it is to own one.|
by NorthwindsGS on 11 January 2012 - 12:41
|For what it's worth, I wouldn't breed my German Shepherd without the proper veterinary certifications and testing.|
I guess my question is will you require the same tests to be done on the wolf/wolf hybrid you use for breeding? Not to many wolves or hybrids out there with OFA ratings........
Please dont even consider this type of breeding. Many moons ago I worked in a animal shelter and all the hybrids were put to sleep as soon as they came in. The manager who had been there many years stated that the German Shepherd/wolf combos were the most fearful of all the crosses, resulting in many doccumented bite cases. These poor hybrids were acting on their instincts and suffered through out most of their short lives because of it. Many/most shyed away from human contact and were not the loveable family companion their hopeful owners thought they would be.