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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > Look at these hips (763 replies)
by yellowrose of Texas on 04 January 2012 - 07:30 |
| Physically LIKE breeding a sister brother .. duh I did not say they were sister /.brother same out come when you breed that close puppies' mother is the neice of his grandfather It would be like me having SEX with my uncle and having his baby?????????? What a mess that would be... Like being your own Grandpa!! a song from the 60's>? YR |
yellowrose of Texas by Schaferhunden on 04 January 2012 - 13:01 |
| Recently, I and Jiri were objects of attacks on PDB http://www.alpinek9forums.com/not-all-people-are-hate-mongers-t808.html |
by frankm205 on 04 January 2012 - 13:08 |
What he failed to mention is after the handshake he only had 4 fingers left  |
by Schaferhunden on 04 January 2012 - 13:19 |
| Poor Hans you feels he is the Victim here. And an attempt to bring him and Jiri down "HIP DYSPLASIA:Thanks to our thorough research, ALPINEK9 produces best available hips and elbows percentages together with superb temperament!!! Ask us! Prager Hans  |
by workingdogz on 04 January 2012 - 14:07 |
Chrissy, we just wanted to wish you and Kaiser all the best for his elbow xrays today! |
by Blitzen on 04 January 2012 - 14:34 |
| Linebreeding and inbreeding CAUSES nothing, it brings the faults to the surface along with the desirable traits. That's where selective breeding comes in. A breeder should never linebreed or inbreed unless he or she is willing to judicously cull the litter and make sure the lesser quality dogs are never bred. Saying it's all about breeding too closely is a gross oversimplification and not the REASON this puppy has severe HD. If it were true, all a breeder would need to do is to outcross generation after generation of normal hips and bingo, there'd be no more HD. How's that worked for the breed so far? I could post a pedigree here that gave me 2 severe cases of HD without one common ancestor in 5 generations and 3, 4 generations of OFA normal dogs. We don't even know why some dogs in the same litter express HD while others have normal hip conformation. Most experts agree that is more telling to look to the production history of the sire and the dam, and the hips status of the siblings when trying to avoid HD. That's the reasoning behind the ZW ratings, right? Personally, if I had a dog from this litter I would never breed it even if it had a scissors bite and excellent hips and elbows. There is obviously no shortage of Czech dogs, so no need to use dogs from litters like this one; it's a genetic disaster. I'll ask again - are there requirements in the CR for DNA sire verification similar to what AKC requires? I'm not suggesting this pedigree isn't correct, I'm just asking a question. |
Blitzen by Jenni78 on 04 January 2012 - 14:39 |
| Linebreeding and inbreeding CAUSES nothing, it brings the faults to the surface along with the desirable traits.
|
Jenni78 by workingdogz on 04 January 2012 - 15:00 |
| Blitzen wrote: "Personally, if I had a dog from this litter I would never breed it even if it had a scissors bite and excellent hips and elbows. There is obviously no shortage of Czech dogs, so no need to use dogs from litters like this one; it's a genetic disaster. " Prolific words that apply to ANY breeding! There will NEVER be a valid reason to use a dog if it has bad hips etc. There is NO shortage of GSD's in this world. Or any other breed for that matter. It is up to breeders to select the most compensatory/complimentary dogs to use in breeding to maintain/improve the quality they have. Even then, they "roll the genetic dice" as to how the breeding will "click", so why start with a "defective" dog. This includes dogs that allegedly have a "bad hip due to injury etc". Fine, has a bad hip? Find a littermate or similar lines with GOOD health and a record of production of same good health! And yes, there is more than just hips to a breeding of course, there is vitality, overall health, temperment blah blah blah, but why start off with a "hole in the bag" of ingredients? |
by Blitzen on 04 January 2012 - 15:12 |
Good post, Workingdogz. Garbage in, garbage out......... |
by Schaferhunden on 04 January 2012 - 15:20 |
| I'll ask again - are there requirements in the CR for DNA sire verification similar to what AKC requires? I'm not suggesting this pedigree isn't correct, I'm just asking a question. Anything is possible with these two |
by workingdogz on 04 January 2012 - 15:21 |
| Thats the problem, is that people will spout "son/daughter/gr son/daughter of ________" and THAT dog was a great producer of hips/drive blah blah. Look at the immediate dogs in front of you, then look behind them, what have those dogs produced, what lines do those dogs cross well to and NOT well to, then, once you have researched it to death, roll the dice and hope for the best. But don't throw a cheap tough old round steak on the grill and expect it to come out like Wagu beef. Even with all the BEST ingredients shit can happen, there are hundreds/thousands of ways genes can "click", but why not try to start with the best? |
by beetree on 04 January 2012 - 15:26 |
| About the meaning of "judiciously cull". Should that mean destroy? Or sell to unsuspecting persons? I am just guessing but could this be the emotional accusation part Hans complains about when one brave soul was talking about Chrissy's experience, that has since been deleted and denounced by Hans as an attack? As if the truth can be an attack! It sure sounds like he wants to sue everybody for speaking the truth. Like a broken record he continues harping on about his fab "replacement" warranty. And nothing about how their negligence invalidates it. I have no doubt there are plenty of suckers out there who will still believe that replacement warranty is protecting them. And it also appears to me, the breeding goal is to produce what was called ... "super dogs" by one poster on the Alpine thread, and that the by product of genetic disasters are no surprise in that quest. |
beetree by workingdogz on 04 January 2012 - 15:31 |
| I thought Hans never deleted comments on his board? Something about proud to be American and embraced our rights to "free speech"? I guess thats a selective "free".  |
by Blitzen on 04 January 2012 - 15:38 |
| Cull = select carefully, and place in pet homes with no breeding agreements. In the dog world, cull doesn't mean to kill, it means to evaluate and select accordingly. Wikipedia: Culling is the process of removing animals from a group based on specific criteria. This is done either to reinforce certain desirable characteristics or to remove certain undesirable characteristics from the group. For livestock and wildlife, the process of culling usually implies the killing of animals with undesirable characteristics. |
by aaykay on 04 January 2012 - 15:45 |
| About the meaning of "judiciously cull". Should that mean destroy? Or sell to unsuspecting persons? "Judiciously cull" essentially means that the members of the litter where the problems showed up, should not be bred, but can be placed as normal pets. Only use the members of the litter without any of the problems (the "super pups" so to say) for further breeding. People who are talking strongly against close line-breeding etc., should go back and look at the history of the breed and analyze how it was developed and strengthened. People need to realize that these are not humans. Out-crossing is great and will not result in breeding between relatives, but what is the predictability of the members of such a litter ? Unless it is a multiply repeated litter, you have absolutely no control over HD or any other defect that might be thrown up via the breeding. In case of line-breeding, it is a technique to deliberately bring out the hidden problems into the surface (and also the strengths), so that future breedings can be done in a more informed manner......as long as "judicious culling" is done and weaker elements are religiously weeded out from the breed-stock. People who talk about "survival of the fittest" and "natural selection" should realize that this is a human intervened version of "natural selection", intended to strengthen the breed. If people were to analyze the members of a wolf-pack, the people who are against line-breeding, would probably be apalled and go into a PTSD mode at the amount of "line-breeding" or "inbreeding" taking place there.....of course both "survival of the fittest" and "natural selection" would kick in in the wild, and uncompromisingly remove the weaker members of such breeding, allowing the strong to procreate and move the pack onward....of course with periodic out-crosses that introduces new blood and vigor into the pack. |
aaykay by workingdogz on 04 January 2012 - 15:54 |
| To keep this thread related to Chrissy's pup, how about the breeder/broker or anyone else with factual knowledge of this breeding come on and give an update as to how the rest of the litter of 6 turned out? Obviously Chrissy's pup fell out of the "super dog" tree and hit at least (so far) two branches of the "shit luck/bad genetic click" on the way down. What about the other 5? Sure, one might say, "well one out of six" isn't "bad" odds. At least they would say that if they didn't have that "one" of the six. What about the rest? Not to say both sire/dam should be removed from the gene pool, but is there more pups like this out there? Have similar breedings been done, if so, what was the result? Had Chrissy's pup been "culled" by means of placing as pet over there in Czechland, this whole drama would not have come to light. But instead, the pup was shipped to America, and fingers were crossed hoping the buyer could be baffled with lines of bullshit and would eventually "go away", as that seems to be the direction that Alpine K9 takes when a problem comes up. And before you supporters jump on that, go back and read Hans' wife's OWN words..she has also "made a mistake" and shipped the "wrong pup" as well. Thats just the stuff that has come to the surface thanks to this thread. So, what about it? Anyone else privy to what this breeding has produced to date? |
by beetree on 04 January 2012 - 15:54 | |
I just want to say, what Chrissy got is not a "normal pet". | |
by Blitzen on 04 January 2012 - 16:16 |
| If I bred a puppy with a severe overbite, I would not have it put down. I would either keep it myself or try to place it in a companion home AFTER I repaired the damage. Limited registration and a neutering agreement. And I would not use any of that litter for breeding. |
by Schaferhunden on 04 January 2012 - 16:24 |
| I do not see anything wrong with placing any pups like this and do not think any person would either but selling puppies for $2000-$3000 is just wrong. The only two options are placing or PTS.I sure this was no first time thing |
by Blitzen on 04 January 2012 - 16:35 |
Well, yeah. 2K for a dog with a severe overbite is excessive and then factor in the dental bill. I'd love to find a vet who would do any type of surgery for under $90.00. I paid $87.00 for a rabies vac, a h-worm check and a lyme test. |
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