German Shepherd Dog > Look at these hips (763 replies)
by Red Sable on 02 January 2012 - 22:15
|It was Debbie posting, and I like her (at least from her posts). She seems genuine.|
Hopefully Hans is on his way to visit Chrissy and is getting this mess sorted out.
by Prager on 02 January 2012 - 22:17
|Oops you are right...... that one I was not as involved in so don't remember the details off the top of my head so won't spout off now, but will do my homework for ya!!!! I will say that we kept one of those banjo playin pups for ourselves. I don't see how Chrissy's situation is any different. Call me dense.....she refused a replacement........still refuses a replacement......|
We are giving her money back against my better judgement. All clients should be treated equal and now she is getting preferential treatment. NOT fair to the others!!!!! Again if she would have let us honor the warranty in the beginning then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Again call me dense, but warranty is written so that everyone gets the same treatment. How many people are gonna be on our backs now because we went outside of the box for her? We all think that we and our circumstances are special. that is just human nature.
I am not sayin that I wouldn't feel the same way she does...believe me I love the dang dogs and yes she did draw the short straw for sure.We have told others NO many time even on this forum. What about Wade? He is ill and has a potential problem with the pup. If he does produce the pictures am I supposed to go outside of the box for him too? Where does it stop? That st why the warranty is in place. All my life I was taught to use the KISS method. The terms of the warranty are to keep it simple, for both parties.
It is hard when you are in this kind of business to keep the emotion out of it. I am just giving it my best shot. Animals produce lots of emotion in all of us.
by Prager on 02 January 2012 - 22:26
|Thanks Red Sable.....You won't get anymore genuine than I am. I was always told to say it like I see it. This is how I see it....like it or not. That is what makes the world go around right? Yes he is on his way to Tucson, that is why I am at the computer or I would not be able to get on here.|
Schaferhunden.....go outside and play with your dog. You need the stress relief.....Have a nice Day
by Red Sable on 02 January 2012 - 22:27
by beetree on 02 January 2012 - 22:32
|Debbie, not to beat a dead horse, but the over bite was never mentioned to the buyer before shipping. That error was not Chrissy's and that is why you are returning her money, really, it has nothing to do with preferential treatment even if that is how you are taking it.|
The correct outcome is taking place, that is good and honorable for you and Hans. Sorry, couldn't resist! LOL
by Prager on 02 January 2012 - 22:53
|Red Sable....Wade got pup at 8 weeks. I have e-mails from him that states pup wonderful and perfect...not a direct quote but in general. We were not told about the ear until pup was older. He was at that stage when their ears were going every which way, advised him to watch and keep us posted. Many times he said all was good ( as he and Hans were buddies and spent many hours on the phone shooting breeze) it wasn't until he got papers that he turned the ear thing into a big deal. He NEVER stated that he wanted the papers to have a certain kennel name attached. He discussed certain breedings. We thought he was looking for breeding NOT name. Jiri sells pups to people and then those people come back sometimes to breed. So essentially the pups are our pups. He will either sell his pick as stud fee or at times help the owner of bitch sell the whole litter. Again, they are viewed as our dogs since pups came from Jinopo kennel. We thought Wade wanted a pup from Jinopo stock....if you will....not name. In fact that did not even cross our mind.|
Again, I need to do my homework on the inbreeding before I spout off.
Can't throw Jiri under the bus and accuse him of anything. He says that he didn't know about the bite and we must believe him. We have been in business with him for a long time and he has been a good partner. Hans did not see the bite at the airport. Again Chrissy did not see it for many days, and she was with the pup.....probably kissing it and smelling that good ol puppy breath. I am not making up excuses, just is what it is....the proverbial s*** happens. Again we are not perfect, but when something comes to our attention we DO try to rectify the problem. Do you think we like this kind of crap to go on?
We always think we are providing a full disclosure.....really we are not the creeps that some of you on this forum would like to believe.
Beetree....I think that i answered your post above too...
by ghostly on 02 January 2012 - 23:01
|Chrissy, I'm glad to see that by posting this here has made Ole Han's step up and do what he needed to do months ago. I wish you luck this week when you take your boy in for his elbow X-rays. Although you have had such a bad experience with Han's and Jinopo, know that there are other breeders out there that have some common decency for the dog and client.|
I only hope this teaches the members of this board that oil fixes the squeaky wheel and that there are some really shady breeders out their even well known breeders.
Now to address you Debbie, yes you maybe tired of the crap being said about Hans. What about the 2 pups that you had shipped to a friend of mine in Illinois ( which name will be with held ) . To refresh you memory a bit, this occurred right about the time Han was back in the Czech Republic dealing with his mother passing away. These 2 pups were sent out and when this person received the 2 pups they looked like they had not eaten in days due to the cociddia and giardia.
When this person got the pups home he discover that the male has a umbilical hernia the size of a nickel. After discussing these issues with you ( Debbie ) he was told that you couldn't take back the pups right away and he treated these sick pups for almost 2 weeks before sending them back.
My question to you and Hans is why this person had to pay for the vet treatments and shipping both ways when these pups left your place in Arizona sick already. This was a client that was a repeat customer of yours!! You 2 only refunded him the price of the 2 pups and made him eat the cost of shipping both ways and medical treatment paid to his vet Is this the true way you and Hans work your puppy sales? Is it truly the money talks and dog walks to you 2? You say you are tired of this crap going on, well then I think it is time to stand behind what you sell here and not wait to hope one gets tired of no return call or response to emails sent.
by Schaferhunden on 02 January 2012 - 23:13
You should have been a decent person and told your husband to refund the money.
They way i see it is if Prager Hans was not named on this thread neither of you would be offering anything "So Again call me dense"
by Jenni78 on 02 January 2012 - 23:30
|I thought Hans and Chrissy were discussing options, and Hans was discussing with Jiri before? Remember a bunch of pages ago when Chrissy said she wasn't naming names because they were talking? She mentioned that she had already refused a replacement based on the teeth? I don't think it's fair to say if he hadn't been named nothing would be done. If I understand correctly, a replacement had already been offered, as per the warranty she agreed to. |
Don't get me wrong, I think refunding her money is the right thing to do in this unusual circumstance, but to pat yourselves on the back like you're solely responsible for justice being served seems a tad grandiose.
by Abby Normal on 02 January 2012 - 23:31
|I have a solution. Amend the warranty and make it the best in the business. Offer a replacement pup or a full refund, whichever the client prefers for defects covered by the warranty which may arise later (eg hips), and for any defects existing prior to shipment. As in the case of Chrissy not all clients want to part with their pup even if it is 'defective', but on the other hand may not want or cannot have 2 dogs.|
If you have as few problems as you say, I see no problem in offering that as a warranty, and then you will have no issues at all in future - what could be fairer, who could ever argue? I can't see the problem with this anyway, as you would be giving them a replacement pup for *free* so no loss to you. Unless you play on the fact that they will not take you up on the replacement. Am I being dense?
by Rik on 02 January 2012 - 23:34
| "How many people are gonna be on our backs now because we went outside of the box for her?" |
No idea debbie, how many have been screwed by, take your choice:
A. incompetence evaluating dogs by Alpine/Jinopo
B. selling rejects to novices
C. scamming from the start
you tell us.
you, Hans and Jiri have no one to blame but yourselves for what has gone on here. And really, the more you have control of the keyboard, the more obvious it becomes.
by frankm205 on 02 January 2012 - 23:35
|I'm ripping people off??? Hahaaha you are funny Hans. I never sent someone a puppy with an overbite that you could fit a banana in. It was dark I didn't see it haaaaa . Stevie Wonder could have seen it hahaha. Knckleheads.|
I'm glad you're refunding the money, it's the right thing to do.
by Jenni78 on 02 January 2012 - 23:40
|You're not being dense, Abby. The only thing many would say is that it's easier to offer another pup most of the time than a cash refund, though for a big business that shouldn't be an issue. Sometimes a small breeder doesn't have the cash lying around. I offer both, but I have made it known that if someone (God forbid) ever needs a replacement or a cash refund, that it may not be instantaneous or that in the case of a deposit, it may have to wait until I sell the pup they had the deposit on. I think many breeders see a replacement like an exchange at a store; you don't get a cash refund on certain things; they can only be exchanged for a similar item. I don't think blanket rules ever work that well when dealing with living things, so I make my guarantee pretty open-ended. So far so good...knock on wood.|
by yellowrose of Texas on 02 January 2012 - 23:44
But the poor customer like Chrissy still gets the whole problem of what to do with a sick or a disabled pup.????it cost money to treat or keep or raise dogs with mega problems.
So no quaranty is gonna FIX It
PUP WITH health issues should not be shipped or sold period...
And there are two sides of the TOAST always...anything not medically wrong when pup is accepted by buyer, BUT MAY SHOW UP MONTHS LATER, may not be the sellers fault and we all agree on that one...AND THAT is why breeders ask for xrays and vet exams and have the right to demand to do their own if it is a serious condition. This issue here is two fold and the buyer chose to keep pup . SHE is a green owner of gsd, and we know any of us would have not accepted this pup, but she is new to this and she did ..so she now has learned , and this whole thread ought to teach anyone never having bred or trained many gsd, to ask some to help you buy your next german shepherd or have them go with you and make sure they are from experienced german shepherd kennels or training groups. Even vets do not know all the signs of a well bred pup or pups with certain faults that should not be bought..BUT if the guarantee says to keep a pup, then that is not solving the financial burden at all..
This thread is about a pup with medical disability from day one on arrival not known. The first thing my vet does when presented a pup for his exam is..he folds back gum,,first not last.
I do the same exact thing when I birth pups after the 4 or 5th day...
No matter what is written on paper , it still is HE SAID SHE SAID <,we said they said...and always will be unles positive pictures the day or minute you touch a pup from airport or on site sale..
We have to PROVE it on both sides and it should always be that way.
I can make one observation now.
BEHIND EVERY MAN IS A GOOD WOMAN....THIS ONE IS NAMED DEBBY
by Schaferhunden on 02 January 2012 - 23:47
|He knew from the start she could not own more then one dog. We all hope he does right by Chrissy and her dog or he may get 44 pages. He came on this forum bragging how many dogs and puppies he sells and the money he charges.He should have more then enough in his bank to do the right thing and give her back the money|
by Abby Normal on 02 January 2012 - 23:50
|If he does produce the pictures am I supposed to go outside of the box for him too? Where does it stop? |
Actually, yes I think you are supposed to go outside of the box for him too. It's called being honest and fair and is good for customer relations. It should never stop. You (should) lose no more than if you HAD supplied a replacement pup. You gain a good reputation rather than a bad one. I find it a bit of a no brainer, I must be being dense.
If this happens so infrequently, I can't see a problem in coming to a satisfactory solution each and every time.
Since we aren't talking toasters in terms of replacements, you must sometimes think
by Prager on 02 January 2012 - 23:58
|Hey Ghostly...glad to know who you are and talk to ya. You are the one that we let come to our seminar for free, because you were in a bad spot financially. (being the creeps that we are)|
Well that is his story. Always my side, your side, and the truth. Yep, I am saying that, as you see everyone thinks that they are right or mostly right and we all know that it is somewhere in the middle. We have pictures of the pups and his assessment is much different than mine. I admit that I sent the wrong pup. I was leaving for the airport at 330 am, yes you are right Hans was out of the country, and I was here by myself . In my half asleep state I grabbed the wrong pup. He was the biggest and darkest and that is what your friend asked for. When he let me know that the pup was the one with hernia I offered to pay for repair. We sent him all of the info. on hernias and whether they were genetic or not. Yes I did tell him that he would have to hold the pups for me for awhile as going to the airport at the hour they would be returned was not possible when I was alone. There were many pups in that litter BUT he was the only one who said his was sick. Funny thing to me as I called all of the other owners and they were pleased. Coccidia is very prevelent in pups and is brought out by stress...similar to a cold sore in people. Giardia can also be on board and not show any real problem until pup is stressed. I am not saying that the pups weren't infected....I am wondering why they were so stressed under his conditions. You could say shipping.....but most of the pups got shipped alone. You would think that they would be more stressed than his pups that got shipped in the same crate and could hang out with a littermate. We offered to pay for the meds, he declined. The person who took the male pup keeps in touch with us and says it is the best he's ever had, and he is very picky!!!! Is he right or is your customer right? I don't know....... Yes he was a repeat customer and the second set of pups were as healthy as the first. It was his decision to send them back for a refund...yep not a replacement as we were glad to NOT have him for a customer so we went out of the warranty box. That was the agreement, in order to get money back send pups back at your expense and our business relationship can be over. You see sometimes the customer can be too big of a pain and not worth the business.
As far as not returning phone calls....he didn't know when to stop talking. He would have me on the phone forever talking about his house and how he is trying to buy a new one on and on and on. I told him many times (even before he got upset) that I was alone here very busy and couldn't talk about those things. It's one thing to talk business but frankly I didn't then and usually never have time to carry on a frivolous conversartion with someone that I don't even know. And I probably shouldn't even go here because he can't help it but he stutters, so long conversations got even longer. Not being mean just how it was. I asked him many times to email or text me so that we could converse in writing. He didn't....just kept leaving messages on my phone.
by Abby Normal on 03 January 2012 - 00:03
Thanks, I was sure I must be being dense. I don't think with a business like Alpine K9, this should be an issue then. Your warranty sounds ideal.
YR - Of course the guarantee will never undo what is wrong with the dog in the first place. That is obvious, but for those who choose to keep a dog and clearly some do, it would enable them to have their money back rather than a replacement pup if that is NOT their choice. I agree pups with health problems should never be shipped in the first place, but it clearly does happen. Please backtrack and read the post by the person who has a 10 year old who has led a normal active life after having FHO surgery, it's quite uplifting.
by yellowrose of Texas on 03 January 2012 - 00:05
|Most customers are reseasonable about health issues. Discussed with the sale, it is usually made known that if this pup has health issues after 1 yr old, we need to assess the living quarters and how pup is fed or raised or how the defect was done or if it is genetic and a time limit is usually on all contracts as to how long any breeder will take full responsibility.|
In case of hips, it is a universal known fact you hve to wait till the pup either can't walk at youth or has hip exrays along from 12 months to 24 months. Then you have the honor of doing right by the pup.
and the owner, to be decided between the breeder and the owner. If owner accepts terms , breeder is out of it..
This case has a lot of mixed up decisions and I see why. If I was young, inexperienced and just went on my own I would have never been instructed properly and would have done probably the flip flop decision to keep the poor baby and then find out I had a mega big problem double digit..and then cry for help too.
Good luck with what ever the outcome is, and we will all still be here.
Or at least most of us will be somewhere between here and there and we all know how to reach each other if we are not board side...lol
by Jenni78 on 03 January 2012 - 00:09
|Oh, Mylanta. |
Can we keep this about Chrissy? I'm sorry, but I don't see what Chrissy or Kaiser has to gain by people jumping into the cesspool and talking about returning puppies for things like giardia and coccidia. Not exactly the same thing and by creating a diversion with frivolous accusations, I think it undermines the seriousness of Chrissy's dilemma. Sorry, but it's not like threads cost money. Start your own.