German Shepherd Dog > Look at these hips (763 replies)
by joanro on 01 January 2012 - 14:13
|Americans happen to be the ones involved here. So it stands to reason Americans are responding and are going to protest against being called " stupid" by a company making their living at least in part by Americans. I'm proud to be an American so call it what you will, but don't expect Americans to accept being called "stupid".|
by workingdogz on 01 January 2012 - 15:40
|To me, this has nothing to do with being American or anything else.|
This is a pretty simple right/wrong problem.
I've nevber been privy to any "Stupid Americans" being thrown around with this duo, however, yes, I have heard it said before.
Wasn't the first time, won't be the last time. The same thing is said about others as well I am sure.
Don't let that take away from what the main issue at hand is please.
by beetree on 01 January 2012 - 15:40
|Hans, I have always been provided with a shipping voucher to return a defective item, at no cost to myself, particularly if it was an error on the sellers part. You're making excuses, and it troubles me. In this instance, it is hard to see this any other way except as the situation Chrissy is in, is your responsibilty to correct.|
All it takes is for you to recognize the obvious. I hope you start off this New Year with a right move.
by Blitzen on 01 January 2012 - 15:42
|I pretty much agree with Workingdogz and like the way Abby Normal has addressed the issue; I like her style. I don't know Hans, the few times we've exchanged posts, he sounded like a decent man who loved his dogs. We were not discussing a sale.|
I can't help but think that the severely overshot jaw should have been seen by the time the puppy was weaned. I had one in my second ever litter, saw it the day the litter was whelped, so I can't muster up any defence for this breeder's selling the puppy without first advising the buyer of the condition and an honest opinion of what would probably be the outcome. Anyone who has bred or owned more than a few puppies should know that a certain degree of overshot might correct with maturity, 1/4 to 1/2 inch maybe. But an inch? Probably not ever going to be a correct scissors bite. Breeder needs to do the right thing and advise the buyer of the bite and the odds of it's ever becoming a scissors bite and let him/her decide. If he/she opts to take the puppy, reduce the damned price and rework the warrantee to address that particular issue for future reference. Did Hans see the overbite? I wasn't there, don't know. Should he have? Yes.
I haven't read anywhere if this puppy was represented as breeding potential or not. If for breeding, the bite DQ'd that notion well before the puppy left the Czech Republic. Not rocket science, it's genetic; ethical breeders do not sell or use dogs for breeding with any sort of incorrect bite period. And isn't an overshot mouth a DQ per the FCI breed standard? Does that breed standard exempt Czech dogs or do they have their own breed standard that does not penalize incorrect bites? Ergo an overshot bite of any degree should DQ a puppy from being sold for anything but a companion dog to never be bred. An overbite of an inch is most likely going to lead to surgical intervention so the puppy can eat and thrive. An experienced breeder should have known that too and sadly, that's what happened. Chrissy pays the bill out of pocket. There's something very wrong with that picture. Would this severe of an overbite interfere with the dog's getting a Sch title? I don't know, but I have to think it couldn't be an asset.
I know of very few people who are going to return a dog to get a replacement. I don't have a problem with a contract stating as mine did - dog will either be returned or neutered before a replacement/refund is offered as agreed upon by all involved parties. Nothing else says "rip off breeder" to me like a contract that requires the return of the dog before compensation is made. Personally, a buyer who has a dog from me for longer than a few weeks and who is anxious to send the dog back would not get another dog from me anyway. I'd just go get the dog, refund the purchase price and be thankful my dog was out of there. Requiring the dog be returned benefits only the breeder and putting ANY strings on a contract are a red flag to me. ie -dog must be fed x diet, not allowed to participate in x exercies, HD must be genetic. All BS. I myself would never buy a dog from anyone who says I have to return the dog.
The GSD world is spread out geographically but is essentally a small community where most of us know each other. No broker is going to be able to develop and maintain a postive reputation if the breeder he or she is representing is not honest as well. We are always judged by the company we keep.
I've had personal expriences with young dogs with bad hips, one whose xray looked as bad or worse than Kai's. All 3 of those dogs outgrew the pain with nothing more than forced rest, pain management, and weight control. Kai should certainly be fine with the surgery. I've also seen many dogs with horrible hips on xrays that never took another lame step after they passed the painful juvenile stage. I trained with a vet who was a former associate of Dr. Riser, founder of the OFA. Riser's belief was the less contact the balls had with the sockets of a dysplastic dog, the better the chance of that dog's being pain free as an adult. Many times he was proven to be correct when dogs with severe HD lived more painfree lives that those dogs with mild HD.
Lesson learned for me????? Buy American!!!!!! I've never understood what the imported dogs are best mystique is all about.
by workingdogz on 01 January 2012 - 15:44
|Chrissy, you may want to try posting an ad on Craigslist and see if there is a homeowner who might let you use their pool for a small fee?|
The only problem with using a "human" pool is that there is likey no ramp to walk the dog/horse down to get in, so that may present a problem for
Kaiser. I'd try to find a horse/dog pool to use for that very reason. Also, I don't believe they use the same amount of chemicals in the pool for animals either.
As we mentioned privately, we will happily pay for a session or two. Please find out if they offer a group package as well.
I don't think I would start him till he has his elbows xrayed though. (Crossing fingers for you both)
by Blitzen on 01 January 2012 - 15:54
|I think Marg Zimmerman has a list of pools for dogs on her DM website.|
by Schaferhunden on 01 January 2012 - 16:01
Lesson learned for me????? Buy American!!!!!! I've never understood what the imported dogs are best mystique is all about.
It is called Spin Mr. Roark and side kick, Tattoo have created this Fantasy about these dogs which in fact are no better then dogs you can buy here
in the USA.Just look at the czech dogs listed on the PDB now with bad hips
and people posting of being stuck.
by Jenni78 on 01 January 2012 - 17:06
|I agree with Nadeem. The "blame" should lie on the shipper...not the folks who picked the pup up at the airport at night. Sure, Hans is their partner, BUT one cannot be responsible for everything a partner does...as anyone married knows;-). I have picked personal pups up at the airport and not noticed things when digging around in a crate w/wiggling pups trying to read tattooes without anyone escaping. You might be surprised what you can miss! Not saying whether he did or didn't notice- I wasn't there and neither was anyone but Chrissy, so that's between them AS IT SHOULD BE AND SHOULD HAVE STAYED, before some self-righteous person took it upon themselves to post what was none of their business. This is Chrissy's show...her decision to decide what is revealed and when.|
It's a very tricky situation if you're Hans, really. This goes beyond just this incident, if you consider the big picture. He has his reputation on the line, and doesn't have full control. Jiri is a bit more protected, unfortunately for Hans. That's not a place I'd like to be. In order to make it right for Chrissy (because God knows NONE of this is her fault!) he may have to "eat it" all himself, which really, isn't fair either, as he's not the one who picked and packed those pups. I guess I've been in enough business situations that I can see a greater scope than is being considered here and I'm more likely to give someone (Hans) the benefit of the doubt for something that he has only partial control over and yet gets full blame as "front man." I've been that "front (wo)man" when the higher up or behind the scenes person decides to pull something shady (either intentional or by honest mistake) and it's NOT FUN.
I can't imagine putting a pup like that on a plane, as anyone I've sold to would attest. I tell people about every little thing, important or not. I spend a ton of time with pups, and not much gets by me about them, but I breed only one litter at a time. Hard to compare me with Jinopo. At any rate, this is a horrible situation where a pup got a bad deck of genetic cards. I don't think anything can truly make it "right." Shit happens. There's no undoing the fact that Chrissy was shipped a puppy that may have been better off pts, and might still be, though I hope against hope that that's not the case and his elbows are fine or good enough to warrant fixing his hips.
by Two Moons on 01 January 2012 - 17:17
|This explains everything.|
by ChrissyKim89 on 01 January 2012 - 17:18
|I will not post my thoughts on the matter until Hans and I have come to a resolution, if that is even possible at this point, so that I am as fair as I can be. Hope everyone has a Happy New Year! :)|
by Slamdunc on 01 January 2012 - 18:03
|Ok, here's the bottom line:|
Chrissy bought a puppy through Hans and his equal partner Jiri. Hans has stated many, many times how he founded Jinopo with Jiri and how he and Jiri are full business partners. On nearly every thread Hans posts on he expounds on his relationship with Jiri and how he has been breeding dogs for over 40 years or something to that general effect.
Hans has known about the condition of the overbite for 8 months and known that he and Jiri "F***** up" to quote Hans. He did nothing to assist with the dogs surgery for the overbite except chastise Chrissy. Hans didn't even return phone calls for a week. The pup should NEVER have been shipped to an unsuspecting buyer! We all agree on that. Now, Chrissy paid to utilize the services of a broker who claims to be an expert and his services guarantee you an excellent pup and their rate of HD is les than 1%. The pup arrives at the airport and Hans the Broker / breeder and partner....equal to Jiri (when things go well) inspects the pup for a tattoo. Hans picks his pup, the one Jiri says to make sure to get and has a pup free of obvious health defects. He then as a broker, expert, man paid for his services should have examined Chrissy's pup as a matter of business to ensure she was getting the quality pup he claims to sell. Are we expected to believe that JIRI who whelped and raised the litter, a breed warden, selects 3 pups for him and his partner and never notices the over bite when selecting all those pups?????? Are we to expect the vet missed this also???? Oh, yes there was a mix up the wrong pup was put in the crate for Chrissy!!!! Now, we are expected to believe that Hans who also inspected or should have inspected the pup missed it also???? A severe over bite, but Hans and Jiri's pups are fine?????? Hans, you are equally responsible for not performing your part in this transaction adequately. From not inspecting the pup yourself at the airport, to not returning her phone calls, to not travelling to see the pup when you knew of the problem. 6 months is too long to let this go.
Hans should personally refund this girl the entire purchase price plus shipping, that is what ethical people do when the "F**** up." Case closed! Why hasn't this girl gotten a check 6 months ago, last week or the latest Tuesday? Send this girl her money back.........Good God, handle your "F**** up." Deal with Jiri on your own, it is not Chrissy's responsibility to deal with Jiri, it is yours Hans.
If this were me I'd be at your house in February to seriously discuss this with you and Jiri face to face. I would also bring the dog to show everyone how you handle your mistakes.
The only resolution is for Hans to at least pay Chrissy back everything she has laid out, including purchase price, shipping, and the cost of the overbite surgery. If it were my business I would also pay for her HD surgeries. Man up Hans, and do the right and ethical thing. This has gone on too long, fix your mistake and pay the price. Very simple. Hans, I would say your warranty or guaranty sucks at best if you ship dogs with obvious health defects when you "F*** up" and do nothing to resolve the problem. So far you have done absolutely nothing, this should be a lesson to people.
I would expect Chrissy to have a check next week at the very least.
Chrissy, I will still contribute to the dogs surgery when you figure out what route you are going, please keep me informed.
by workingdogz on 01 January 2012 - 18:18
|Not to nitpick, lol, but Hans did offer to pay I believe it was $89.00 for the dental work done, as he stated on the thread from another board, as that is what "his" vet would have charged. |
But yes Slam, you have summed it up perfectly, as have others, many many times. There was no acceptable reason for the USA Rep of Jinopo to not get in touch with an obviously dissatified customer when she (a novice) discovered the huge overbite the second day she had the pup.
Evidently the airport in AZ is in a dark cave with no lights, as Hans stated it was dark/nite, so he didn't see the gaping overbite, but did check the tattoo to ensure "he" got the "right" pup.
I could almost buy not seeing the overbite if they were both novices, but thats not the case, this is an "expert" on Czech dogs in particular.
He has sold hundred and hundreds of dogs. He has an eye for things a novice would miss right off the bat.
In fact, comparing his version to his own words, he was a lot sharper in this deal than most want to give him credit
I hope the manner in which he has tried to blame all this on Jiri and claim his hands are tied is paid close attention to by potential customers..
It's one way or the other, you are either the USA Rep or you are just a "lowly broker". Either way, if you broker the deal, YOU get left holding the bag!
Thats part of the "glory" of being a broker, which is why it's always better to simply refer people to breeders etc than to try and make a quick buck. YOU are always the one they will come to when/if there is a problem. Afterall, thats what you got your cut for right?
I do agree with joanro (I think thats who said it), if this is a matter of Jiri's screw up, then yes, "poor" Hans should pay attention to this and rethink his partnership.
by Abby Normal on 01 January 2012 - 18:37
Great post Blitzen. I think this may be a lesson learned for a lot of people. It wouldn't be for me, there are enough superb dogs to choose from in my home country, that I can go and see and choose my own, visit and watch develop.
Yes, I think it is a difficult situation for Hans. However, he is the representative on the ground of the 'organisation'. My understanding is that he is an equal partner in this business. Regardless, he is the front man in this transaction, therefore it is right that it is he that has to handle any problems, and boy is this a problem. If I were him I would be absolutely furious and asking one hell of a lot of questions as to how and why this happened. If his partner has pulled something shady with or without his knowledge then he needs to take a hard look at what he is involved in, and if this is a genuine mistake I would be expecting heads to roll, but that's his problem.
Meanwhile, to preserve any reputation, especially his own, this needs to be handled well. It should have been handled better, but there is still time. If Hans ends up having to pay it all, it will be a lesson learned for him too. Maybe that will ensure that this 'mistake' will never happen again.
Chrissy, quite understand. I hope that this is going to be resolved properly for you, at least financially. Let us know as soon as possible. I am sure we still will all want to organise our donations to top up what you receive back from Jinopo, to get Kaiser everything he needs.
I too hope everyone has a Happy New Year.
by Abby Normal on 01 January 2012 - 18:46
|LOL we all posted at the same time.|
Jim, I definitely wouldn't want a cheque in this situation! Oh no.
These days a bank transfer can be made online, or just by calling your bank. It's safer (doesnt get 'lost' in the post), doesn't bounce(!) and is in your account in a couple of days.
by Slamdunc on 01 January 2012 - 18:49
|If this were my business I would be in a car making the 3 hour drive to Tuscon with cash in hand topersonally apologize, check on the puppy and reimburse Chrissy for the puppy, shipping and to cover all of the expenses so far. If that doesn't happen and I was the puppy buyer in this situation I'd make the trip in person when Jiri is in AZ and confront both of them and get to the bottom of this "mistake." But that is just how I would handle it. |
by Slamdunc on 01 January 2012 - 18:54
by Abby Normal on 01 January 2012 - 18:55
|Oops we did it again.|
Jim, that's a much better idea, and a truly gentlemanly way of handling this,
but somehow I can't see it happening. I'd love to be wrong.
by Red Sable on 01 January 2012 - 18:58
|Well, the difference is Jim, you are a decent honest man.|
I wonder how Jiri would appreciate taking all of the blame?
by sachsenwolf on 01 January 2012 - 18:59
With the number of pups/dogs sold by this partnership, they certainly CAN give full refunds (with proof of neuter/spay but no return) to all of the ~ 1% that get a defective dog and still make money. They would have a better reputation to boot, and may draw some buyers that would normally look them over because they will only go to the breeders that offer such guarantees. This could be a good practice for them to consider in this day and age, even if Hans offered this alone and ate up Jiri's mistakes in order to keep their relationship as status quo. Just thinking out loud. It's not part of his contract now, and it's not the common GSD contract (especially in Europe), but even though it doesn't sound so when you think about giving money back, it really could be a win-win all around.
by Jenni78 on 01 January 2012 - 19:04
|Honest and decent are matters of opinion. Surmising what Jiri might be thinking is as productive as defining honest and decent.|
This should be a factual thread, as Chrissy has repeatedly hinted and asked that people back off until it's settled. One would think that if everyone were so concerned about CHRISSY and KAISER, they would knock off the bashing and chill out, as is in her best interest.