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ForumsGerman Shepherd Dog > being the "alpha"? (29 replies)
being the "alpha"? by gsds30281 on 17 December 2011 - 19:42 |
I have heard two different things said about the "alpha" leader. I've heard that dogs will protect the "alpha",but I have also heard that because the "alpha" leads the pack it would be his/her job to protect the pack/ submissive members. What are your opinions on this? |
by aaykay on 17 December 2011 - 20:23 |
| Alpha or Beta, your dog is your dog. Not very sure about the "alpha leader" "pack" etc. c&*p, but the dog knows you are his owner who provides him love, companionship, food and shelter. The dog instinctively guards his territory, which includes your house, your property and also the members who reside within, including the members of your household and yourself. In my opinion, that about sums it up on why the dog defends you and your possessions. At the same time, out in the real world, you are responsible for your pet. You have to make sure that he/she does not get into trouble and stay out of trouble. You need to administer to his/her needs and medical care. If the dog causes an "accident", you clean it up - an "alpha" wolf pack leader may not clean up after his "submissive member" but you do for your dog, since he/she is in your care and he/she is your dog. I personally doubt a dog looks at you as an "alpha member of the pack", like a member of a wolf pack looks on the pack-leader as the "alpha" - since a dog is smart enough to know who is a dog and who is a human and can clearly distinguish between the two. JMHO, of course. |
aaykay by destiny4u on 17 December 2011 - 20:42 |
| if a puma or bear attacks the alpha wolf (a more powerful predator) the rest of the pack will fight the puma, on nature shows they never just let the alpha deal with it on his own even the pups join in, otherwise wolves wouldnt be top predators if all other animals had to do was take out the alpha, its a group thing but yeah aaykay is probably right i doubht the dog sees things that way after 13 thousand years of domestication. |
by Red Sable on 17 December 2011 - 20:44 |
I know I had an alpha dog that definitely got more worked up when the children or I were outside if someone came in. With my husband there, he didn't feel like he had to handle it, but let him handle it. Then I've had dogs that just seemed territorial and not so protective of the person, and dogs that were just plain sharp and more worried about protecting themselves, rather than the property or their persons. |
Red Sable by destiny4u on 17 December 2011 - 20:50 |
| yeah i have seen that also dogs that would fight for themselves or for their property but would not do it for their owner lol I always wonder why its not like their owner abuse them i figure the dog just thought hell my owner can handle himself i am too lazy to bother but who knows but if someone went on that dogs property that dog will bite for real when they did home invasions in protection. Do anything to the dogs owner in public it wont care though.I never saw it in gsds though. Other bully type breeds. |
by Red Sable on 17 December 2011 - 21:01 |
| Interesting destiny. Mine have all been GSD's. They have all been so different though. |
by jc.carroll on 18 December 2011 - 00:34 |
| In observing the majority of dogs I have owned, of all different breeds, they view me as their alpha and tend to elect to let me handle situations that I am comfortable in. However, in the case where I was creeped out when approached by a stranger in base housing (who was later arrested by the MP for unsavory activity), my GSD had no problem picking up that I was not happy with this man's behavior, and stepped between us in full guard mode. My interpretation, in terms of natural behaviors, the pack will follow the alpha, and if the alpha looks like he, or she, is contemplating a fight, they will naturally join in on his side. The mob mentality of a pack. |
jc.carroll by jc.carroll on 18 December 2011 - 00:41 |
| My black lab was very protective of me while I slept. If we were in a different place, she would literally stand over me, two feet on one side, two on the other, and stay there all night. In the morning, when I woke, she would curl up in a tired heap and rest. She was field lines, not show lines, but I don't know if that makes a difference. --- I have a JRT who kept watch while I was pregnant. He would stand on the bed next to me, and growl if things moved outside. Never before, or since the pregnancies. Not like a 15lbs rat dog has much stopping power, but the little guy will hit a trial sleeve, and dangle off it with great tenacity, lol! |
by aaykay on 18 December 2011 - 02:57 |
| She was field lines, not show lines, but I don't know if that makes a difference My field lab pup (5 months old, lean, hyper-active, dominant and 60+lbs now) will get between me and any other dog, if a dog (any dog, regardless of size) were to make a move towards me. He is of course still just a pup, with all four of his baby canines, still firmly in place. Of course since he is a field lab, his energy levels are ultra-high and probably a notch above even my Czech GSD female 6-month old pup. My 5-month old Choc Field lab pup: http://i1026.photobucket.com/albums/y323/phwebhost/Bella%20and%20Joey/109336ba.jpg http://i1026.photobucket.com/albums/y323/phwebhost/Bella%20and%20Joey/c1a15f65.jpg http://i1026.photobucket.com/albums/y323/phwebhost/Bella%20and%20Joey/c28bcd85.jpg http://i1026.photobucket.com/albums/y323/phwebhost/Bella%20and%20Joey/de479c3a.jpg Of course, I am a firm believer that all of the "human alpha" talk and the dog treating a human being as the "alpha pack member" is just plain rubbish. We are not giving these intelligent beings enough credit, if we believe that they can't distinguish between a human and a member of their species, and treats the human master as some kind of a pack alpha. The only exception I would make to the above is if the dog were plucked from his mother when its eyes were barely open, and were raised from then on, exclusively in the company of humans, with no interaction with members of the dog species. Under this situation, the dog would look upon such human as its parent. |
by jc.carroll on 18 December 2011 - 04:13 |
| I doubt most folk would say their dog has species-confusion issues. Dogs know we're not them. At the same time, they are the only species to have evolved with humans in a symbiotic relationship. Dogs are rather unique in that they have evolved to respond to humans and their own kind in a remarkably complex bi-species social structure.
My dogs defer to me, but at the same time when I "release the hounds," and let them run in a free pack while I sit back, I see they aren't leaderless. Within the pack they have their own social structure that operates quite smoothly without my intervention. The occasional bark-skirmish crops up, but even without me, they have fit themselves into their own roles. Back to the OP's statement, I have seen how they react to unusual things without me coaching them. They follow the alpha/parent-model's lead. If the alpha bolts, tail down, the rest of the pack take flight. If the alpha charges, then they all mob in. The alpha/parent, whatever theory you chose to espouse, he will shepherd the pack away from danger or lead them in a united charge, but making a lone stand against a threat is not something I see, with one exception: I have seen both males and females make individual stands to protect young dogs, puppies. Dogs will stand by an incapacitated pack mate, like an MWD guarding his fallen handler, or standing watch while his human sleeps, and I know they stand by fallen members of their own kind. I think that is a desire to maintain pack cohesion; for the strength of the wild canid is in his pack, and on a survival level it makes more sense to stand with a fallen pack mate hoping they get than it does to go with reduced numbers. --- I am also not afraid to say dogs form complex emotional bonds. Survival theory notwithstanding, dogs want to be with their loved ones, species regardless. |
by Kevlar on 18 December 2011 - 05:25 |
| I think it is the socialization we do with puppies at a young age that forms a bond with a human. I have been around dogs who haven't been around people until they are older adults and they don't want to have anything to do with people even though their ancestors did. That being said dogs will form a bond with any species it encounters as a puppy and form a pack. My dogs play very differently with my cats than they do with each other and they play very differently with my kids than they do me or the cats. I don't think they have any kind of species confusion however, they do view all of us as their pack and in any pack there is a leader. That is how the pack survives. So even though my dogs look to me for guidance when it comes to survival of the pack they definitely act more on instinct. My female GSD is very friendly to anyone I allow in the house however, at night it is a different story. She is much more guarded of people who come to the door. They are smart animals and I do believe they look to their leader for guidance... but being human doesn't automatically make you the leader. I also believe they will act on instinct and GSDs have a good bit of intuition as well. |
by alboe2009 on 18 December 2011 - 08:30 |
| Topics like this one are interesting and funny at the same time. A lot of our perception will be based on what we see our dogs do, the way we were taught and at times our mindsets. What some our missing is some of the information or facts is determined by breeds. For instance a pack of King Charles Spaniels to a pack of GSDs or Mals. But that's a different subject. I'm amazed how some think like humans and not like dogs. A dog has two mentalities; It will LEAD OR IT WILL FOLLOW. He/she can only do one or the other. He/she will be just as happy following IF there is a leader, a ALPHA. But if there is no ALPHA then he/she will step into that position. That is just how they are wired. Doesn't matter about domestication or how many years of domestication. For those who call the "pack mentality" crap or rubbish, I wonder if you are really in tune with one, your dogs and two, with quote unquote the Animal Kingdom? The comments of how the dog looks to you as human or alpha or alpha leader is not in the equation. It is a pack structure mentality. No more no less. Strength in numbers and a ALPHA for cohesiveness of the pack, for survival. Take away the "human" element............. are you saying saying that the dog or pack of dogs can't or won't survive? Highly unlikely. A pack of dogs would kill just as a pack of whatever out in the wild. Look at wild dogs. To eat, to survive. Now, situation dictates and there are many factors involved that could sway things one way or the other. But some of your comments are, I'll just say opinions. Now, why do you think some people have problems with their dogs "not listening"? Or have you ever heard someone say that with one spouse the dog "minds" but with the other spouse the dog rules him or her. Another example would be if you ever had a puppy. I'm pretty sure that puppy isn't looking to you as a "human" but the ALPHA or PROTECTOR. and if the two of you are somewhere day or night and there is something uncomfortable to him or her ie;; stranger, another animal etc., that pup will come to you, at your side, or close to your position for protection, security because of not knowing "friend or foe". Also, some are talking about other things or using examples not pertaining to "ALPHA mentality". |
alboe2009 by Kevlar on 19 December 2011 - 00:54 |
| I think that people who don't believe in the alpha and the pack haven't spent time around an established pack of dogs or really know dog language. I will foster 4-8 dogs from the bahamas at any given time and believe me... there is a pack structure and it is very clear when you watch them. It takes only a minute for me to establish that we are now under "my" rules and they are quick to learn my rules. Bahama dogs are quick to follow so there usually aren't any problems however, a GSD is a natural leader so a GSD is more likely to test the rules and try to take over the leadership role. I too find it hard to believe that people don't believe in the alpha/pack structure and think of it as a theory... do you think that some dogs just listen to humans better than others? It is no more theory than the world is round... but unless you are very in tune with dog language and behavior you may not pick up on the fact that their are followers and their are leaders and you just might be a follower in your dog's eyes. It is absolutely the alpha's job to protect the pack. If I see a strange dog while I am out I am the one that steps in front of my dog and tells the other dog or dogs to get lost. However, if one of these dogs were physically attacking me or a person was attacking me I have do doubt my dog would come to help me fight off this outside member who is threatening the pack. |
by alboe2009 on 19 December 2011 - 03:28 |
| I forgot to mention also for those that don't believe in a pack structure or Alpha. There have been numerous documentaries on "Animal Planet", "Discovery Channel" or "National Geographic" on these topics. Now we are not talking of Dingos, jackals or hyenas. We're talking of regular dogs for whatever reason are loose, doesn't matter what the breed and have formed a pack roaming the neighborhood or the open fields/plains. Domesticated animals that now run in a pack. Have an Alpha and learn to hunt and eat in a pack mentality, strategically. And unfortunately some are aggressive and learn to either hurt or kill in a pack. |
by Kevlar on 19 December 2011 - 05:13 |
| It was also documented that Katrina dogs formed packs and hunted for food. These were completely domestic dogs that out of necessity to survive formed packs and "hunted" for food. The dogs I foster from the Bahamas are often the same way. They are born on the street and learn how to survive in a pack. Although they are "domestic" dogs it is amazing to watch these dogs and their dog behavior. They are very smart and very intuitive. |
by AmbiiGSD on 19 December 2011 - 08:53 |
| You do know the guy that came up with the whole pack theory concept, has debunked his own theory???. |
AmbiiGSD by jc.carroll on 19 December 2011 - 14:04 |
| Pack theory, parent-model theory... A theory is only true until it's debunked. The alpha model was used highly at about the same time dominance theory was big; holding, unfortunately one major overlook: willing submission by members, rather than forced submission by a leader. The "alpha roll" is initiated by the submissive member willing to defer to the leader. Regardless, In the absence of the current leader, a new leader, alpha, will be found within the pack. At the very most basic, a pack operates with a leader (alpha, parent) initiating action, and the pack supporting it. |
by Rass on 19 December 2011 - 15:22 |
| Take a look at this: http://www.nonlineardogs.com/ |
by alboe2009 on 19 December 2011 - 15:23 |
| Ambi, For me that's a little vague........................ You make a vague comment then end it with a question mark? Are you asking us? Or stating to us? Or being facetious? Not sure. But type in an article or document or something . I'm not sure just "one" guy came up with this "theory". Maybe if you can scroll through NG's archives (not sure if you can or not) but there were a few episodes on "Animal Packs" and it showed a pack of wild dogs. Showed from puppies to adults and their lives. Showed how they strategical set up to hunt for their kill and what each member of the pack's purpose was. It showed them chasing their target and when they came upon a stream or river bed how each member took a different route to "cut off" their prey's travel direction. This documentary showed the high intelligence of the pack, the Alpha and each member of the pack having a vital role in order for the pack to flourish and survive. It showed the area, (can't remember what you call it), but the area they live in and control where another pack doesn't enter unless they're trying to take over the territory. |
by alboe2009 on 19 December 2011 - 15:28 |
| Ambi, For me that's a little vague........................ You make a vague comment then end it with a question mark? Are you asking us? Or stating to us? Or being facetious? Not sure. But type in an article or document or something . I'm not sure just "one" guy came up with this "theory". Maybe if you can scroll through NG's archives (not sure if you can or not) but there were a few episodes on "Animal Packs" and it showed a pack of wild dogs. Showed from puppies to adults and their lives. Showed how they strategical set up to hunt for their kill and what each member of the pack's purpose was. It showed them chasing their target and when they came upon a stream or river bed how each member took a different route to "cut off" their prey's travel direction. This documentary showed the high intelligence of the pack, the Alpha and each member of the pack having a vital role in order for the pack to flourish and survive. It showed the area, (can't remember what you call it), but the area they live in and control where another pack doesn't enter unless they're trying to take over the territory. |
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