German Shepherd Dog > Is £2000 too much to pay for importing a dog from Jinopo cz into the UK (239 replies)
by Chaz Reinhold on 17 December 2011 - 05:24
|Well you're telling me there are other countries that better suit me. If I'm mistaken, please tell me what countries you had in mind. No biggie. I didn't take offense. I rarely do.|
by aaykay on 17 December 2011 - 05:27
|My guess would be ones like Cuba or North Korea.|
by Jenni78 on 17 December 2011 - 05:33
|LOL. I hadn't given it nearly that much thought...just paused to read this mess and seemed that the argument had gone to capitalism and what is "too much" profit instead of the original question. There are many countries with stricter regs on commerce and such. However, you're welcome to stay in Michigan. I really wasn't implying half of what you seemed to take from that.|
by Ace952 on 17 December 2011 - 05:33
|hey I wouldn't mind spending some time in Cuba|
by Chaz Reinhold on 17 December 2011 - 05:36
|Lol. I'm not in michigan. I'm closer to Cuba than Canada right now.|
by Pirates Lair on 17 December 2011 - 07:13
|Chaz ............by moving to quick you reveal your weakness, thus confirming my suspicions…….. С Рождеством Христовым товарищ Chaz.|
You forgot the "Rules of Engagement" taught to you so long ago!
Back under your Bridge Comrade...........you No Longer Have Power Here!
by workingdogz on 17 December 2011 - 10:24
|For the original OP,|
Read, read and read that sales contract.
Make note of any questions, get the answers in writing and amend the contract if need be.
Most times contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on. I have always bought puppies "as is", and to date, have never been wronged.
It is simply not that hard to buy a puppy/dog from another country, find an established and reputable breeder, no need for a broker, go direct to the breeder.
Because of your location, you need to "Pet Passport" your dog/pup, thats fine, be up front with a breeder. You may find for what you are paying for a puppy from this breeder/broker, you can purchase a 6-12 mos old youngster that has hips/elbows prelimmed and already passported.
I personally would not buy through Alpine K9/Jinopo. I have seen too many sketchy problems pop up on web boards-pups with massive overbites, pups with different paperwork (ie, not preferrred/requested kennel name), and adult/young dogs with poor nerves. Young dogs not socialized etc. Pups from full sibling breeding where that little detail was not outwardly explained. (Please, sending the pedigree of the dam to a novice in dogs, and then telling them the pup is "closely inbred").
Being "light" with details doesn't make it ok. And yes, the buyers in these instances should have practiced some due diligence too, *but* in each of these cases, trust of the broker was built and they all took the broker for his word. Not my preference.
When dealing in dogs, these guys have to sell a dog to keep the lights on..so morals are perhaps more easily comprimised.
Keep that in mind before parting with your cash. Understand the guarantee will likely not be worth anything.
The main thing you have to understand with dealing with a broker..it's not what you ask, it's what you don't ask that will come back to bite you in the ass.
You pay your money, take your chances
by Red Sable on 17 December 2011 - 11:05
|"Bottomline, the buyer needs to decide if he wants to pay the price for a reliably top-quality puppy. I personally would pay the money, just for the peace of mind.......after all, the dog that I get, will be around for a decade or more and a structurally/temperamentally sound dog, would make that period of ownership a lot more pleasurable. "|
You'd think when you pay that much, that you can be sure you will have a dog like that, but that isn't always the case, and way too much of a gamble for me. The best dogs I've ever had, I paid the least amount for. Puppies are a crap shoot, and I don't care whose puppies they are.
The farther away you buy from, the more shipping costs, which is YOUR expense if the pup is not what you want. Another expensive risk.
by Red Sable on 17 December 2011 - 11:17
| "Anytime an individual preys upon the ignorant, I get all warm inside."|
I agree with you Chaz. This is the part of this mess that bothers me the most too. It is the naive and unsuspecting that get taken advantage of.
by frankm205 on 17 December 2011 - 12:56
Chaz and Red sable are right on the mark.
Everyone is entitled to make a profit in business. It is how businesses survive, dog dealers are in business to make money. It's the lying, cheating, misrepresentation of dogs, false advertising, price gouging that seperates the good ones from the bad ones. If you absolutely want an old style Czech dog there are other dealers and better yet breeders more reputable than Alpine where you can get a real czech dog at reasonable prices from honest people. Do your homework and you will save thousands of dollars.
There are other issues like some of the videos that are made to show how a dog is working. Remember this,there are some really good trainers there that can make a dog look good on a video real fast. Then when the dog gets here you will begin to see the holes in the fast paint job training. When you tell the dealer you're not happy with the dog they will tell you it's you're handling and a host of other issues that are your fault. The botom line is you bought a dog based on BS fast talking and a video that was done to make the dog look good. Deal with breeders and trainers in the USA where you can go test and see the dog personally without traveling overseas. There are many tricks these middleman dealers do to decieve people. I have seen it many times over the 20 yrs of importing and training dogs.
You don't need to hire someone because of their "Czech spirit" to rip you off. Use your USA spirit and by pass them. ;) Heck PM me and I'll even help you!!!!
by frankm205 on 17 December 2011 - 12:57
|Oh yea and I wont charge you 3,000 for advice ;)|
by Prager on 17 December 2011 - 15:31
|Frank you said that you have 3 businesses .|
Here is a question,... business question for you.
Wholesale price minus retail price equals profit.
True or false?
by Skylagsd on 17 December 2011 - 15:43
|After all the BS advice and emails and phone calls you still bought the dog. I guess you didnt fall for the BS.|
Either the guy is a BS' or he knows about dogs. After all you did buy the dog after all. You did spend time picking his brain.
by aaykay on 17 December 2011 - 18:09
|Either the guy is a BS' or he knows about dogs. After all you did buy the dog after all. You did spend time picking his brain.|
As somebody mentioned earlier, this is akin to walking into a brick-and-mortar retail shop and spending time there and trying things out, getting detailed information on the product (not available from elsewhere readily) from a truly expert salesperson (who knows the detailed ins and outs of the product and how it stacks up vis-a-vis its competitors) and who will continue to help you, even after the sale, in fully utilizing the product, then walks out and orders the product via the internet. Not debating about the morality of this but just an observation.
I believe what was mentioned earlier was that they (or Jiri in CZ) would have personally gone and seen the dog, and did some detailed temperamental and other tests on the dog in question (something you absolutely want when buying an adult dog, right?), all of which was built into the price that was being quoted. So this additional $3000 was not just some kind of broker's commission per se. (as is being bandied around here), but charges incurred in getting expert opinion, time/effort from the same expert who has to take the time off to drive over in person to the dog in question, along with evaluation equipment and such (arguably, there is none better than Jiri when it comes to evaluating a Czech bred adult GSD), and then enabling the buyer to finalize the deal with both eyes open as to what EXACTLY he is getting - a FAR better proposition than buying an adult dog, sight-unseen, from a different part of the world. Whether that additional work is valuable to the buyer or not, is a totally different question, for the money he is paying additionally.
In this particular case, the (adult 4-year old) dog did physically arrive......but does the buyer know the detailed ins-and-outs of the "product" ? This is not a camera after-all, but a living being with specific genetic strengths/weaknesses, who in turn would be mixed/matched with other females around, as part of a breeding program (am I right here ?). As mentioned before, the question is not about throwing 2 individual animals together, to generate pups (the quintessential BYB) but having a detailed knowledge of the animals in the pedigree, knowledge about the littermates of the animals in the pedigree and then using such expertise on the genotypical/phenotypical strengths/weaknesses of the dog in question, in the pairing of the individual with an "appropriate" partner further downstream. I believe that extra $3000 would have kept the tap of expert opinion on the purchased "product", going on throughout the lifetime of the dog, in addition to the time/effort involved in evaluating the dog during the original purchase. This is not a "broker" after all, who then washes his hands off the customer, now that the deal is done, but a true dog lover and expert on Czech GSD lines (you are buying a GSD from a Czech line after all, right?), who would remain engaged with detailed and thoroughly knowledgeable advice, throughout the lifetime of the dog......based on what I know about the parties in question.
Bottomline, yes, there was some upfront saving on the purchase of that adult dog.....was that "penny wise, pound foolish" or was that a real gain ? Was that a tactical gain but a strategic step backward (specifically talking about using the dog as part of a breeding program, where expert advice will be needed going forward) ? I think the buyer needs to be totally honest with himself here on whether he is truly ahead of the game right now by what he did.
Either way, I would cease this bashing of individuals on internet forums, to be quite honest, if I personally were the customer mentioned in Para 2 of this post.
by Jenni78 on 17 December 2011 - 18:16
|Chaz, I responded to you last night but it seems to have not shown up. I don't really care where you are; you can stay wherever you like;-) I really hadn't given what I said that much thought.|
This argument is asinine. If you don't like the price of something, don't buy it. I do believe this country (USA) is still free enough to allow for that small exercise of free will.
Services and other intagibles such as trust and "not having to do some things yourself" are difficult to price. Some of you trust Jinopo; some don't. That is irrelevant, if the person buying the dog does and is comfortable paying for that trust rather than risk buying from someone whose phone will be disconnected when the puppy gets off the plane. If you don't trust someone, then no, of course you will not want to pay a premium for a dog from them as opposed to someone else.
This reminds me of when I was a Realtor. You got the people smart enough to know that selling/buying their house themselves could be dangerous as they didn't have the expertise and time, and then you had the people who wasted 6mos. of time and money trying to sell their house themselves (or bought a lemon) because they were a self-proclaimed expert who had to try it themselves because that damn Realtor had no right to make $9000 from "almost nothing."
The point is, a service is worth what someone will pay who is looking for that service because they are not experts in the field. The wise person does what they know, and pays someone who does know to do the things they don't know how to do! There...now say that 3 times fast, lol. I think it's unfair for people who have been importing for years to essentially call people stupid for opting to pay extra money to avoid getting burned. These people are likely experts in other fields and likely charge money for their services themselves.
by Slamdunc on 17 December 2011 - 20:02
That is all well and good if the person with the expertise and providing the service offers a really great service, does something to warrant a 50% price increase and stands behind the product. If the "knowledgeable" person is simply a clever marketer and does nothing but promote himself and takes advantage of people then the service may not be worth it. I think both sides of the argument can be seen here.
If you lack experience and are a complete novice, then use the services of a dog vendor or importer. But be very careful, there are many vendors that prey upon new unsuspecting puppy / dog buyers. There are also reputable vendors that are honest and do a good job. Puppies are a crap shoot regardless of the importer. Buyer beware, research everything you can, check references and then make a more educated decision.
Some people really do enjoy koolaid.....
by Jenni78 on 17 December 2011 - 20:06
|Jim, true, but my point was that this isn't so much about WHO is doing it in this case, but was the AMOUNT "too much" as that's the question. The thread then derailed and turned into a pro/against Jinopo thread and spiraled from there.|
by Prager on 17 December 2011 - 20:19
|I would like to stress here that we ( AlpineK9 and JINOPO)do not make "$3000" on this deal.|
First of all the price went down from what the person told us at first and what she then sold the dog for. But let's say for sake of simplicity that it was $3000.
That $3000 involves also overhead , that is beside the cost which was already mentioned here, like direct involvement with this particular dog - client - me- my partner- decoy, evaluation, transport, vet, crate, heath cert, additional shots, trip of 800 miles round trip to the airport,........, .
Overhead on top of it includes everything which we need in order to run this business, like: real estate of kennel here in US and kennel in Czech, my partner who must get part of the pie, vehicles, dog training equipment, insurance on business and vehicles and employees, taxes, wages to employees, power , phone , computer/Internet, advertising, vet bills, x rays, dog food and yes more dog food, and losses of dogs dying now and then, and replacement of a pup, based on warranty and grey hair of experience........
And then I am not talking about working from 5 to 9 and not vice versa. Never be able to take vacation together with your spouse because you do not trust anybody else with your dogs. Not to be able to see with Debbie together my dying mother who loved Debbie. It does not account for pain when pup dies ......
Is it all worth it? Usually yes. But at times like this I have a little dream of having gas station in middle of nowhere Alaska and having two dogs and go fishing in my spare time. The pain caused by people who are jealous or do not understand and who just need to hurt someone on International forum in order to feel better about them selves is often maddening. What pains me is lack of loyalty and understanding and compassion and appreciation and honor.
On the other hand I must say that hundreds or actually thousands of other people I deal with are good people who appreciate what I do and the dogs I get for them and they make it all worth a while.
Thus I guess I will in the morning put on my favorite "T" shirt with words on it :" I love the smell of dog shit early in the morning. It smells like a victory!" and go clean kennels and pet my dogs, train my dogs, talk to people who love dogs and live as I live loving what I do. And now and then being compelled by someone to think about gas station in Nowhere Alaska.
Yes I always have that, another dream.
by destiny4u on 17 December 2011 - 20:30
|4 months should tell someone or at least give the person a good idea what kind of nerves or temperment the pup has, i wonder does anyone know?|
by Jenni78 on 17 December 2011 - 20:34
|Maybe this thread should've been called "Do certain people deserve to make more money than other people? How much? And who decides?" |
This is ridiculous. Frank, Jim, Chaz, RS, my suggestion would be not buy a dog from Hans if you don't like him and don't want him to make money. Buy a dog from people you like better and want to make money. Isn't that what we pretty much all do anyway? Vote with our dollars? For every person who has an issue with someone or says they charge too much, there is a person or persons out there saying they don't think they charge enough and would have gladly paid more. This is not a debate anyone is ever going to "win."