German Shepherd Dog > What constitutes a "Valuable Breeding Animal" (Female)? (17 replies)
What constitutes a "Valuable Breeding Animal" (Female)?
by Rass on 03 December 2011 - 14:46
|In the opinion of the breeders/readers here (while considering the current puppy market in the US), what constitutes a Valuable Breeding Bitch? |
Would you consider a bitch that is too young to OFA, untitled, with a good pedigree but out of an untitled Mother (as in not breed surveyed, no SchH 1 etc. but OFA'd good) by a world class sire a "Valuable breeding animal?"
Would you only consider her a valuable breeding animal if she titled and breed surveyed and was OFA'd? Or would you still be reserved on this until her mother also titled and Breed Surveyed ?
by Dog1 on 03 December 2011 - 15:43
|I would look right through the motherline on her maternal side and see the history.|
by Rass on 03 December 2011 - 16:08
|So lets say she is out of an untitled bitch, whose dam is titled and surveyed, and the previous two bitches are untitled..... and then titles start to show up (Mother line) back at generation 5 and 6..... but nothing past SchH 1....|
by brynjulf on 03 December 2011 - 16:25
|Way too many variables on that question Rass. I like to see the Dam side solid with titles and not just a Sch 1. But who knows she could be the bitch of all bitches. With breeding it is so hard to tell. But all health tests must be in order or I would pass. Nicest brood bitch I ever saw was an ugly ( and I mean ugly) female that looked like a male, she threw GORGEOUS pups that titled practically by themselves. She wasnt valuable, she was priceless.....|
by TingiesandTails on 03 December 2011 - 16:30
|As you asked the readers of this forum you will get many different answers.|
For me only a healthy, at least 24 months old female with certified hips, at least titled with SchH/IPO I, female that passed a breed survey (Koerung) is breed worthy.
There are too many dogs on the world already, my personal opinion. As a "working dog" person, I wouldn't breed a dog unless her hips are great and she would have a minimum of IPO II and breed survey.
by hunger4justice on 03 December 2011 - 17:39
|Unless I personally know the dog and see something magical in her (very doubtful if she is not surveyed and titled) that I think is so very rare and I am salivating at the lines in the sire...No way would I even think about buying a puppy out of that dog. There are too many dogs who are proven, surveyed with a stamp or excellent hips and elbows to take a chance on a dog like that. Also, I would be suspicious that there must have been a problem or the proper standards of breeding would have been followed-and even then it is a partial crapshoot that what you seek will be in the progeny.|
by Two Moons on 03 December 2011 - 17:40
|Research the breed standards, when you find a bitch that meets all the criteria then you have found a worthy bitch.|
OFA is a step in the right direction but not the only health issue to look for.
Look at the animal and not so much at the paperwork.
Titles are not all they seem.
by Dog1 on 03 December 2011 - 18:32
|Bear in mind it's almost impossible to title a show dog in the US. Take a look at the number of show dogs that are titled in the US. It's only a handfull when you compare them to the number of dogs here.|
Moons is correct. Titles are not what they seem. Especially in a show dog. A person I know bought a SchH1 female from Germany. They wanted it to be a SchH2. No problem. Two weeks later (between the time it was purchased and bred) the 3 year old SchH1 dog that was in season and had not been worked in at least a year was suddenly SchH2. Good dog maybe? Not hardly. Unfortunately there are way too many paper titles floating around to have them relied upon. Take the time to look at the dog and decide if it represents where it came from. Unless you are buying her only to breed her and sell her puppies. In that case get the titled dog.
by sable59 on 03 December 2011 - 19:40
|a valuablen brood nbitch is one that constantly throows great dogs and a high % AT THAT.|
EVER BITCH REGARDLESS OF THE BLOODLINE, TITLES ETC. DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A GREAT BITCH. she must be proven and the only wat to do it is breed her and see the ofspring work.
in the last 10n years i have only had 2 good bitches. after breeding the others i sold or in one instance gave one away. all my breeding males and females i might add came from titled parents with great breed surveys from slovicka or czech.
have a good day.
by Rass on 03 December 2011 - 20:07
|I am aware of the variables and I am aware that titles do not always mean what they should mean. Lets assume the titles on the dogs in the pedigree were honest titles.. but the subject bitch was still out of an untitled dam and an honestly titled/surveyed grand dam.. then two generations of really great sires lines but no titles on the bitches (mother line) then we get into titles again (gotten honestly). |
Of course anyone wanting to expand on this to what they think is welcome to..
.. and this is Show Lines not working lines (subject dog).
I also want to exclude discussion of dogs that are untitled but actually doing real life work. IOW's if a dog is out of untitled lineage but the lines are all dogs that actually lived their lives herding, or working as Guide Dogs, or as military or K9's and so forth. IMO real work counts and is a whole separate discussion.
by EisenFaust on 04 December 2011 - 05:39
|What constitutes a valuable breeding female depends on what you are breeding for. First you start with a pedigree, the pedigree gives you a snipit into what previous breeders were trying to accomplish, drives, looks, color and so on. You then look into the health aspect hips, elbows and so on. After all that you have to really consider the actual female herself does she have the actual traits that you want to reproduce in her puppies. Before you breed make sure you take an honest look at the female, not through the eyes of seeing your companion laying on your bed, but with clear vision and forsight. Once you hostly pass all those hurdles you then breed her to a male that posesses the traights. Once the puppies are born you evaluate them and wait and see how they turn out.|
Titles are important but make sure they are the right kind of titles if you want to produce police dogs you look for breeding stock that have a track record for breeding police dogs. If you want to produce show dogs you then breed to stock that win in the ring and so on. but you should never look pass stability, and sound character of the dog.
by Rik on 04 December 2011 - 10:52
|A valuable breeding animal is one that furthers the goals of the breeder, whatever they are. I would say that anyone breeding without h/e certification needs to reassess their goals (or at least set a few) for the GSD.|
by Rass on 04 December 2011 - 12:21
|Interesting responses. |
This is actually sort of an off shoot of the other threads that talk about show lines with good protection and so forth.
In my way of thinking, the breeding females should not only have the physically sound traits you want in a dog (OFA's and so forth).. but also the traits the breed is known for.
Of course, training and handling do have influence and cannot be ignored.
Last and NOT least is the pet dog that is so "wonderful" and that you love that you just "must" have puppies from her... NO....
by Two Moons on 04 December 2011 - 18:43
you brought up a couple of things I would like to comment on in your posts.
First off the American market,
Most dogs by the numbers bred in this country either come from back yard pets or commercial puppy mills with no regard for the BREED STANDARDS.
By the numbers I consider this to be true.
Training, handling, showing, traits the breed is known for,
Performance, this is a working breed and I would guess most people if they were honest would admit to loosely interpreting the breed standards.
How can the dog work without the training and how does one define the traits without putting them to the various test and evaluation over time.
I see too many people breeding two year old dogs just as soon as they have an OFA and a CGC purely for the money.
Too many people buy a titled dog from what they consider top kennels and think the dog will produce offspring of the same quality.
I am guilty of this to some degree myself but it is folly.
It takes years to see what is produced from a given pair and only time can prove results.
And how many of these top dogs actually hold to the original standards especially when the judges themselves deviate from the standards.
And my final pet peeve,
People who keep dogs as possessions only for the purpose of breeding or to boost their own ego's instead of raising a dog for what it was meant to be.
This has nothing to do with your post but my own opinion.
Money takes away the real purpose of the breed which is to serve man, to work, protect, and become a valued member of ones family while having a full happy and productive life.
Not kept in a kennel or crate and become an object.
If one was to be honest, one out of a thousand might be truly breed worthy, but this is not the way of it is it?
In the end, it is in the eye of the beholder and again I am guilty of this myself.
Since i can not truly trust breeders or judges opinions I trust in my own and in doing so I too am a part of a great problem.
Standards are there for a reason,
when so many talk of improving the breed, how many actually do it?
by Bhaugh on 04 December 2011 - 18:51
|Titles to me are only as important as allowing you to know what your buying from a pedigree. I judge a female or a male to be vauable by what they pass on to their pups and the pups are winning or working to the standard consistantly litter after litter. Of course the dog itself must pass the genetic tests and be sound themselves. Ones that are exceptional are dogs that can be bred to just about any dog and they still can produce excellent puppies . Those are pretty rare. But Ive seen a few over the years.|
Im guessing your looking at a female in your scenero? I would say too risky if your intent is to show this dog. Then again we all know that show puppies who have what it takes to go all the way, we'll be lucky to have one or two in the litter. If this IS your situation, take someone with you that is very knowledgeable in show lines to evaluate the litter for you. I would never buy online for something like. Go in person. We all know famous dogs produce pet puppies all the time. It takes just as much money to raise a pet puppy as a show puppy. The only difference is when the dog is an adult you wont get any return on a pet other than love.
by aaykay on 06 December 2011 - 21:41
|I picked my puppy (currently 6-months old) from a Dam and Sire who were not titled. But all four of the grandparents had top titles and/or were service dogs (Czech working line GSDs). No complaints yet from me. |
Buying a puppy is a crap shoot at best. You can do all the analysis you want at 7-8 weeks of age but there is absolutely no guarantee on how the pup will turn out as it matures.
Many a time, a top titled male (who gets to breed the most) might be producing less-than-stellar pups but his litter-brother, with little to no titles against his name, might be the one truly producing the future greats. Phenotype vs Genotype etc.
PS: "Titles" to me is just an indication of the trainability of the sire/dam and one hopes that the same trainability is passed onto their pups. Other than that, titles to me are meaningless, since I don't value a Schutzhund title or some other similar title, one little bit, to be quite honest.
by poseidon on 07 December 2011 - 03:26
|If I understand correctly, the implications of breeding (quote: if you considered "a bitch that is too young to OFA, untitled, with a good pedigree but out of an untitled Mother (as in not breed surveyed, no SchH 1 etc. but OFA'd good) by a world class sire a "Valuable breeding animal?") this would only narrow your puppy buyers to either pet, guide, sar, security or police depending on the temperament of the pups. More than likely sport and show aficionados will not be interested.|
by Nans gsd on 07 December 2011 - 21:12
|Pristine health with clearances to go with; biddability, trainability, a breeder that you can trust and work with in the event there becomes a problem later down the road; and first and foremost the termperament has to be impecible, both sides for several generations. Now you have something. Titles can be baught. Titles do not change the genetics of the dog/bitch, however, nice to have but not mandatory. Good luck in your search, Nan|