German Shepherd Dog > I like American show bloodlines. Crosses anyone? (181 replies)
by Fenrir on 19 December 2011 - 21:18
|Maybe I am blind, or maybe I don't know the history of my breed well enough...when did our dog become about the gait? I mean I know it is spoken about by the Captain, and obviously it cannot be ignored but the issue I have with the AKC and its view of the Shepherd is they are so blind to the real history of the dog. They speak of the history post Rin Tin and only in the US...it is a GERMAN shepherd.|
The dog was bred to work, first and foremost, the color of the dog, the gait of the dog, the drive of the dog all these factors were small in comparisson to the dogs ability to work. Work being Herding or protection or both, the entire article did not once touch on that fact. You see THAT is what makes me sad about the AL German Shepherd, the focus of the parent organization in this country is totally bass ackwards and never is the dogs true ability to work mentioned. Even in that article it mentioned its ability to herd do obedience, or agility, not mention what so ever to the dogs ability to protect which even for the herding dog was essential to Max von Stephanitz and his close friends in their developement of the German Shepherd. I am not sure where all this focus on nothing but the gait came from but it is definitely not what the makers of the breed wanted for the main focus of the breed.
I do not care the line, does the dog work? Yes, great that is what a German Shepherd should be, no? Then sorry it is not a true Shepherd.
by destiny4u on 19 December 2011 - 22:42
but i thought a good well bred AS will be ble to do herding? I just never heard of them being consisent with the protection thing like producing good pp dogs or patrol dogs for police etc.. German show lines though still have good dogs that do that i think from what people say. I dont really know enough about american show lines personally which is why i was asking.
by Blitzen on 19 December 2011 - 23:15
Destiny, personally I think that there are a lot of GSD's of all lines in the US that could do a lot more than they do. They just never get the chance. Yes, some ASL can herd/tend, some can't, most have never been tested.
by Sunsilver on 20 December 2011 - 00:23
|Wrestleman, there you have the proof you are WRONG. Moses also titled some dogs in Schutzhund in his younger days. He also titled his first AKC champion at age 13. (One of his mother's poodles.)|
Damn. I came across an interview where he talked about his schutzhund experience, but of course, now I can't find it! [grumble...]
by Rik on 20 December 2011 - 02:06
blitzen, there is a very well bred Am. dog in LE in my area. breeder one of the most recognized in U.S. I watched him grow up and he was a pretty rough dog. The department he went into had only Mals before him. The officer who took him had lost his dog, heard this one might be available. they came out, tested and accepted him and as far as I know are pleased. he is starting his 3rd. year in LE.
by Sunsilver on 20 December 2011 - 05:59
Jimmy says, in that interview that was linked earlier:
PREACH IT, BRUDDAH, PREACH IT!
by Blitzen on 20 December 2011 - 12:36
|Rik, that's really good to know. I am very interested in knowing who this breeder is. If you can tell me, please PM me here. Thanks so much.|
by Blitzen on 20 December 2011 - 12:43
|I thought that statement was interesting too, Sunsilver, especially the part about the rear feet turning up before the hock straightens. I've noticed that in a lot of dogs, never knew if that was correct or not. Now I know. That is seen in all lines and all breeds, not just ASL GSD's.|
by Smiley on 20 December 2011 - 13:40
|You can see Moses' current superstar and multiple BIS winner here:|
I actually saw the dog in person and met him. He looked pretty nice to me....not super overdone behind but also not quite as firm as I like through the hocks (but better than most). He seemed quite balanced. He had a very pretty head and good color. He had a rock solid temperament.
The thing is that the American show dog IS about GAIT, GAIT, GAIT. So, no matter how you want to slice it...that's the real fact.
Maybe the GSL is the same?
Also, just to add to another topic.....I, personally, talked to the woman who trained Dallas to herd and he was the real deal. In fact, I met two of his kids who titled easily in herding..I believe one was an advance title.
by Blitzen on 20 December 2011 - 14:43
|Good research, Sara. You are way ahead of the game because you do your homework and don't assume anything.|
I saw Captain on TV, real nice dog IMO. I didn't notice anything soft about his hocks and I can't access that video for some reason. I think he's a Dallas grandson, isn't he?
by Sunsilver on 20 December 2011 - 15:11
|Smiley, yes, it's becoming all about gait in the GSL, too. That's why I said what I did above.|
I'm making your link clickable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXJmw9LRMj8
To do this yourself, go to the end of the second row of icons in the editing screen, and click on the globe and chain icon (third one from the end).
by Smiley on 20 December 2011 - 15:22
I can't remember his pedigree but I would not doubt that based on the connections.
Yes, his hocks are not as tight as, say, my WL, bitch but they're not real floppy either. I guess I would call it a more "smoooshed down" look behind but a lot better than most. You know, where their pasterns kind of are paraellel to the ground and their hind ends kind of look crouched? But, his are not bad compared to most dogs.
Dallas was a very balanced dog (to my inexperienced eye and had beautiful shoulder and hip angles) and was not as smooshed down behind either. I really liked Dallas a lot from pictures but never met him in person.
This dog that I saw Jimmy handle looked like he could be a West German cross or something. He had good color and a pretty head. Very, very solid temperament. I was quite impressed with his disposition. He was a pretty fancy mover but didn't seem super extreme or weird looking to me. He had a great front end, like most ASL, and looked to be balanced with a strong back. Clean mover and correct...I would have liked to see him a tad less smooshed down but that is my personally preferance.
On a side note, I met Jimmy and his wife (or ex?) for first time at the show . Anyway, both VERY nice people. Seemed to have no "major" bias against German dogs from what I could tell. Both were supportive when I told them I was thinking of showing my East German/DDR bitch...even going so far as offering to help give me grooming and handling tips.
I think Jimmy and wife(or ex) both know a good GSD when they see it. But, my take is..they live in the AKC show world and make their living from it. So, maybe they might be in a bubble where they know what wins and they get paid to win so they need to have the dog that the show world wants. However, this is just my guess as I only met them that one time....
Another dog I really like is this one: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=722850. This dog is OFA Hips, Elbows, Cardiac, and Thyroid and has been Temperamnent tsted with gunshots.
So, there have been a few ASL dogs that I have really liked.!! I don't think one should throw the baby out with the bathwater....
But, the negative points that have been mentioned are legitimate ones. The ASL is not required to prove working ability nor temperament to be bred. That is a genuine concern and a valid argument. But, that does not mean there are not ASL breeders who do not work their dogs or ensure proper temperament.
I think it would be cool for some of you WL people to reach out to some ASL dogs and offer to test them to see if the dogs show potential.
I am still new to the GSD politics. But, I think what is going on SUCKS and I wish there was a lot more crossover. From the limited conversations I have had with ASL breeders, they are feeling like the Working world is already dissing their dogs before they have even started. I think their anger is justified. Now, some, maybe most have zero interest in the working world. However, maybe some really do but feel too intimidated to try. It is as foreign to them as an AKC show ring would be to a Sport/ScH dog. But, why not meet halfway?
I had this stupid idea.....wouldn't it be cool if at the GSDCA National they offered a training clinic for ScH with a seminar on what it is and why it is important and at the end a ASL person could get their dogs evaluated for ScH potential? I know stupid idea. But, I wish it was so...if there was any interest in trying to meet the ASL halfway and other people, far more experienced in ScH than I (meaning everyone), were interested in helping than I will take the reins and try to pursue this with the GSDCA and report back. But, maybe I am dreaming and it's a stupid idea.
by Blitzen on 20 December 2011 - 16:48
|Sara, AKC will not allow any Sch demonstrations or classes ( or anything else that encourges dogs to bite people) to be held at or in conjunction with any AKC approved event. The GSDCA is a member of AKC and all their events require AKC sanction, so they couldn't do that if they wanted to.|
I don't have WL's; my current dog is 3/4 ASL, 1/4 GSL. She's my 4th GSD. My first was 50/50, my 2nd and 3rd and 4th 100% GSL. Have never owned a WL, but would like to one day. I try to keep an open mind about the breed since I respect and am friends with owners and breeders of all lines. I don't decide if I like a dog based on it's pedigree. I first look at the individual dog and if that dog is of interest to me, then I do my homework.
I liked Dallas too. Not much to not like about him IMO.
by Fenrir on 20 December 2011 - 17:01
|GSDCA HAS tried to do Schutzhund and they failed miserably, tucked their tails and packed up...Another problem I have with that organization it is my absolute view that every line of Shepherd should be able to do Schutzhund, not all the dogs in that line but there should be dogs of all lines represented. The fact that AKCs GSD organization could not do this upsets me a bit I will be honest, I am sure AL dogs can do it at least SOME can. GSDCA looks at Schutzhund as Taboo, lots of reasons I have heard for why but the in the end it is just too hard I think.|
by Blitzen on 20 December 2011 - 17:04
|Where did you hear that the GSDCA tried Sch?|
by Fenrir on 20 December 2011 - 17:06
|They did it for like 2 years, called it Utility dog or something like that even had pictures of guys with bite sleeves on their website, not too long ago either was maybe 2 years ago.|
by Smiley on 20 December 2011 - 17:06
I own a WL bitch but also try to keep an open mind....
by Blitzen on 20 December 2011 - 17:11
|That was a GSDCA santioned event, fenrir, or something some members tried to do on their own? There is an AKC Utility Dog Title, but it doesn't involve dogs biting a sleeve.|
by Fenrir on 20 December 2011 - 17:16
|I think it is good to keep an open mind, however the "Parent" club for the breed, which I think is a joke seems to disagree with being open minded. Frankly the stigma with working line people is that American Lines don't cut it, mostly because they have never excelled or really competed however I blame a lot of this on the stigma held by both sides. We have a couple of AL crosses in our club that do just fine however GSDCA needs to recognize that Schutzhund is not only ok, it is the more German Shepherd thing a German Shepherd can do. The damn sport was created FOR German Shepherds. Plenty of dogs can herd, and herding was around waaaay before the Shepherd, however Schutzhund was created by German Shepherd people, FOR German Shepherds for the betterment OF German Shepherds. Kind of sad that no where is this really highlighted or mentioned on anything AKC or GSDCA. Openmindedness begins at the top, if the main organization refuses to be open minded then the poison will just continue.|
by Fenrir on 20 December 2011 - 17:20
|It was pilot program sancationed in every way by GSDCA and it lasted for awhile and yes they did have sleeves being bit. Too bad it is not up anymore but there were pictures on their own GSDCA with dogs jumping over jumps and carrying dumbells as well as biting sleeves. It was not a one time event either they were trying to see if they could get into the sport is what it seemed then they canceled it.|