German Shepherd Dog > I like American show bloodlines. Crosses anyone? (181 replies)
by Blitzen on 18 December 2011 - 06:22
What health screenings are routinely done by GSL breeders other than hips and elbows?
by Smiley on 18 December 2011 - 12:40
Slam, actually most top ASL breeders have generations of hip and elbow. But, I would say I am seeing tons more ASL dogs advertised as also being tested for Cardiac, Thyoid, CERF, and DM.
One top ASL dogthat I really like is this one:
He has OFA numbers for Hips, Elbows, Cardiac, and Thyoid.
The AOE in front of his name, for people who don't know, is awarded by the GSDCA to dogs that are named Select Champions (Top conformation dogs w/ hip and elbow certification); Have OFA hips and Elbows; have passed a Temperament test with gunshots; and have a performance title. I really like the concept but I would prefer the performance title be required to be at the highest level of the discipline so ScH3, UD, TDX, etc....but I do llike the AOE concept.
Anyway, I think the dog shown is a really nice dog and he is very stable mentally from what I hear....Anne-Isles Promise Keeper is the only AOE Select dog that holds an advanced level performance title.
by Rik on 18 December 2011 - 12:47
|hello blitzen, the health checks I was referring to are those required by the respective clubs. H/E for the SV and none at all with the GSDCA or GSDCC. There are very some very conscientious breeders in GSDCA who insure their dogs are screened, but it is not a requirement. |
slamdunc, I'm going to comment on your post from my experience only. So not an indictment of all Am. breeders out there. Good dogs that can actually win in GSDCA/AKC shows are not that easy to come up with. I will say that I have never seen or known of a "star" that has been washed out for any issue that can be "fixed" or covered up. There have been Grand Victors with known bad elbows, spine issues, character so poor that one required an escort into the ring so as not to get spooked by admirers. I have personaly been present or holding the leash while some very well known dogs were given arthiritis meds for limping, were colored, given uppers or downers and just about anything imaginable to get a dog around the ring. I know dogs that had implanted testicles or teeth, tails fixed, elbows surgicaly repaired. Whatever it takes to win. Again, this is not a knock on all breeders/exhibitors, but it does happen at some pretty high levels.
by Dog1 on 18 December 2011 - 12:47
|I want to say the typical German dog breeder does hips and elbows and looks at the ZW. We did the OFA DM DNA test. My impression based on this forum and from the seminar is the American breeders do CERF for the eyes and a thyroid test as well as OFA hips.|
I think it's two different sets of screening for what basically is two different types of dogs.
It sounds like the switch netted a better result for the breeder's breeding program.
by Blitzen on 18 December 2011 - 14:12
|We are not comparing apples to apples. The SV is a registry, the GSDCA is not. A registry can "require", an AKC parent club can only "suggest".|
The GSDCA offers plenty of incentives to its members to breed better dogs - PAM designations for dogs that have produced dual titled progeny, CHIC for dogs that have met the minimum requirements for health clearances (hips, elbows, temperament test), the 13 club for dogs that have reached their 13th year, an award for dogs that are dual titled. At every NS they offer a Parade of Greats to showcase the dogs that have major accomplishments in the breed. Most ASL breeders I know well are going above and beyond the minimum and testing thyroids and hearts; some are doing eyes and DM.
I look at a lot of websites of GSD breeders and overall the ASL breeders seem to do more health tests prior to breeding their dogs while the GSL breeders seem to only concentrate on hips and elbows. I only have access to the OFA data base; some breeders of both lines are using other labs to test for DM so there are more dogs that have been tested than we can research on the net. Dog 1 tests his dogs, they are not on the OFA base as far I know, so he must use a different lab. So far, since 2008, there are only about 1200 GSD's tested for DM using the OFA lab. Considering the number of litters whelped every year, that is a pretty sad statistic and nothing for any breeder to be proud of.
I don't think it's prudent or fair to intimate that the GSL dogs are generally so much more healthy than the ASL's. I've had both, and had severe lifethreatening health issues with both. Others I know have had the same experiences.
The bottom line for me -I don't generalize that all dogs of either line are healthier or better in any way than the other. I would bet the health status and longevity of both is about even and I'd also bet that there are ASL's that could do a lot more in protection if their owners didn't have hang up about "teaching their dogs to bite". And I know a lot more GSD owners who lose dogs before they are 11 than I do those with dogs that make it to 14; these are dogs from both GSL, GWL, ASL.
by Blitzen on 18 December 2011 - 14:28
|Call me stupid, but I cannot believe that only ASL owners dye and/or dope their dogs and have dogs with poor temperaments. The worst temperament I ever had in any dog was a 100% GSL out of some very well known V and Va rated dogs.|
by Sunsilver on 18 December 2011 - 14:34
|Dog 1, that is indeed a GORGEOUS dog! WOW!|
Dalllas was one of the best things to happen to the American S.L. in many decades. However, it's probably a good thing for the breed that he died young, or he would have become another Lance, with everybody breeding to him. Even now, I remember a Westminister show where 3/4 of the GSDs in the ring had Lance as either their sire or grandsire! He not only had good structure, he also loved to herd, and according to one person who saw him herd, looked like he could do it all day long. This was at the age of 8, too. I've also heard Jimmy did some schutzhund with him, though I have no idea how well that went.
He's one of the main reasons I chose to purchase my female, Star, as he did not have the extreme angulation most of the American dogs did. And it didn't hurt that Ursus was here OTHER grandsire!
Rik, I've also heard of dogs....really well known dogs....that were so unstable in temperament they had to be crated, well away from the public, to prevent anyone from being bitten.
by Rik on 18 December 2011 - 16:41
|since an American breeder of GSL was suspended for coloring dogs I don't think ethics are confined to any one type of GSD or country for that matter.|
As far as character in individual dogs, only one dog at a recent show I attended was refused a rating due to poor character and it was of all things a w/l dog. I placed a G s/l that I brought from Germany as a pup in a pet home due to poor character. My mistake. So I have no misconceptions that just because a dog is German it is all that.
Really did not mean to offend anyone, but the bottom line is that when anyone, law enforcement, military, sport or working professionals the world over need a GSD for any purpose past what dozens of other breeds are capable of performing, they do not go to what the GSDCA has brought about.
by Red Sable on 18 December 2011 - 16:45
|Hi Rik, can you be more specific on what the poor character was in the w/l and in the s/l of yours?|
by Blitzen on 18 December 2011 - 17:06
|I agree with your last statement Rik, the whys and wherefore are numerous and could make for a year's worth of serious board debate LOL.|
A related concern is that the breed in general is falling out of favor with many PD's and law enforcement agencies. A guy I know who works border patrol in AZ (I can't think of a worse way to earn a living) tells me they want no more GSD's from anyone anywhere ever. They are all about Mals now. A few years ago, an NYC officer with a Czech GSD told me that there was a lot of concern in that department with the quality of the GSD's they were importing from Europe; they weren't meeting their expectations or trained as they were supposed to have been. Another friend with a boarding kennel in NYC area boards homeland security dogs, mostly Czech GSD's, and she says they are the worst dogs she has ever handled. Total nutcases that run through their own feces and urine trying to escape 24/7. There is serious talk of replacing them with Mals too; even their handlers are getting fed up with them.
Personally I know of no ASL's that are serving with a PD, but there may be a few. I do know that there are some good GSL breeders like Chris Stump who is/was breeding great looking GSL's that could do that job. I saw one at NASS and he was something special in my mind. I think I'd rather be known for breeding GSD's like that than for breeding GSD's that were Va material.
by Sunsilver on 18 December 2011 - 20:42
|Even now, I remember a Westminister show where 3/4 of the GSDs in the ring had Lance as either their sire or grandsire!|
Oops. That was supposed to read DALLAS, not Lance!
by Slamdunc on 19 December 2011 - 17:55
How many of the dogs at the GSD show in VA last week could pass an AD? How many could pass a simple temperament test including gunshots such as a BH? Which is really fundamental and simple. Are the dogs required to have hips and elbows OFA'd before being allowed to be shown in the adult class or can any dog be shown? If some American breeders are actually doing health screenings that is a good start but not my experience. Speaking of the NY breeder that became an AKC judge then switched to German Dogs. Here is a thread he participated in on the PDB. Bear in mind he wouldn't admit who he was and spoke about himself in third person. A real great example of Am SL breeders who switched to German dogs.
by Fenrir on 19 December 2011 - 18:08
|Wow there is some serious kinds of drama in this Show dog world, painting dogs?? O.o wow, kinda glad I am not into this side of the German Shepherd, though I do intend to at very least get my girl her KKL if possible.|
by wrestleman on 19 December 2011 - 18:20
|Sunsilver you are a nice lady but Moses doing schutzhund thats funny. And Dallas being able to do it that's just great. Moses wouldn't know a schutzhund dog or police dog if his life depended on it. Hell half the people who talk about it on here wouldn't know a working dog if it bit them in the but. You are a very nice lady and that statement made a bunch of us here laugh.|
by destiny4u on 19 December 2011 - 18:25
|is moses a handler?|
by Blitzen on 19 December 2011 - 18:47
Since the topic of this thread is I LIKE American show bloodlines....crosses anyone? it might be nice to focus on what breeders who use both are trying to accomplish and are accomplishing, not so much why they can't accomplish anything with undeserving dogs.
by destiny4u on 19 December 2011 - 18:52
|they seem to be doing herding i think and agility, but dont know of any that breed police patrol dogs or military or personal protection i have never seen it yet. I hope the gsd is not totally replaced as a real protection dog with the mal and dutch. It is going to end up like the rottie and dobie then.|
by Blitzen on 19 December 2011 - 19:01
|LOL, Jim. I almost forgot about that exchange. I always wonder about those who speak of themselves in the 3rd person. By the time that ended I felt so sorry for the OP that I'd have given him a free dog if I had an extra. Poor guy so proud of and loving that dog so much and then being told in so many words that it should never have been born.|
by Blitzen on 19 December 2011 - 19:05
|Wrestleman, actually someone I know who knows a lot about Sch watched Jimmie handle Dallas through the Sch1 exercises. He said the dog was pretty good and would have had a decent qualifying score were it a trail and he a judge. Now would Dallas have climbed on the top of a car and ripped the roof off to get a perp? Probably not.|
by Blitzen on 19 December 2011 - 19:43
|destiny, yes Moses is an AKC handler. He's been in the breed for a long time. This is a link to an interview he gave for the GSDCA magazine "The Review". It might give some a look at the way at least one ASL person perceives the breed past, present, and future.|