German Shepherd Dog > I like American show bloodlines. Crosses anyone? (181 replies)
by Kalibeck on 06 December 2011 - 17:14
|Just to compare my ASL/GSL female with my WGWL male, my girl is by far the more biddable & intelligent of the 2, she is the healthier of the 2, she has a WAY clearer head...I can put her under pressure & she will remain utterly focused on the task at hand, my male would get all ramped up. And she is sensitive to the situation; not my boy, he is always a bull in a china shop! I could trust Kali to take complete charge of my grandchildren, she would keep them contained in 1 room, with out frightening them, & not allow anyone near them until given the OK; my male would knock them over, scratch them, slobber on them....needless to say, he wasn't the kids choice either! Kali would even walk my granddaughter to the restroom & back....OK-it wasn't Schutzhund, but it was herding, LOL! And protection! Taking care of children is a demanding job for a creature of another species! When we were home renovating she would take charge of the little ones like a pro, kept them away from the dangerous tools & work areas like she knew exactly why they shouldn't be there. She could sense changes in my blood sugars before I felt them, & alerted me....with no training. She would protect me & the family instinctively, & the way she protected was very well thought out. She was not a 'barker' or 'chaser', she would eye up the threat, get as close to them as she could, very quietly--& then would stand up on her back legs until she was at face height, & ROAR at them, showing all her teeth, & then kind of hang there for a minute, watching them react, (which was usually falling over themselves to scram! LOL!) & then fall back to watch them on all fours. As long as they kept retreating, she would just watch, keeping herself between tthe threat & me (or us, or the kids). If they so much as looked back she would stand up & bark again, if not she would come back to us with a very pleased look, like the cat that swallowed the canary. Even at close corners she would get in the bad guys face, but never had the need to bite or pursue....she never met a threat who cared to challenge her. As this was untrained, instinctive behavior, I wish we could have tried schutzhund. The 1 time I took her to a club, we were made fun of before I even got her out of the car, the minute I answered the question, "What lines?" So, that was that. She was & is too inelligent & knowing a creature to subject her to derision for the sake of MY ego!|
And I second Smiley & Blitzen.....I love all GSDs....despite the issues, I couldn't imagine having another breed! I urge people to evaluate the individual dog....not pre-judge by the pedigree! jackie harris
by Sunsilver on 06 December 2011 - 18:34
|Honestly the AML dogs have to be bred back to the German lines for their survival, the lines are now all heavily inbred and they will go genetically extinct if the other lines do not get reintroduced. |
And the German showlines are different from this...how?
If I were to compare the German side of my female's pedigree with the American, I definitely see more line breeding on the German side:
by barbhorses on 06 December 2011 - 21:10
|Here is a working line, American show, and German show cross:|
by Von Ward Kennels on 07 December 2011 - 01:34
|I believe in crossing lines to get what I believe to be supurb offspring. I am not a big fan of Am. showlines because of over angulation and temperament/health problems BUT on the rare occasion there is one that is of better quality then why not? We are after all trying to better the breed.|
by Smiley on 07 December 2011 - 12:16
|Thank you to everyone for the great discussion and showing me fine examples for this type of cross!!|
by Rass on 07 December 2011 - 12:27
|The problem with all this crossing is you really do need to understand the genetics and what is preoptent. |
IOW's just because the two dogs are nice as individuals phenotypically and you LOVE that dog does not mean the genetics will mix well. It CAN work to cross out from one line to another (GSL to GWL) but you need to understand where you are when you do this. Taking in any ASL's as a cross is the same. You need to know what you are doing.
You can have a WONDERFUL dog of any lines and that dog is probably still NOT a dog that should be bred.
Mixing lines can be like mixing paint colors. If you mix red with yellow.. you get orange.. add a little more yellow and you get bright orange (line breeding on yellow if you would). Add too much yellow and you get washed out red that is not a very good orange and is certainly not yellow.
If you take too many colors and mix them all thinking you will get something really great.. you may be surprised that what you get is a muddy grey.....
Not saying don't do it.. because it can work.. certainly can with horses.. Just saying know what you are doing.
Breed dogs with your HEAD... not with your emotional attachment to any particular dog or even any particular line.
by Blitzen on 07 December 2011 - 13:12
|Rass, if one were a purist one would argue that, since every GSD alive today goes back the very same foundation dogs, it is not possible to "mix lines". |
Many breeders who are combining ASL x GSL have done their homework and plan their next breeding based on those results.
by Rass on 07 December 2011 - 14:54
|Of course, as a purest you could say that. However, my understanding of the lines from the beginning is that there was a split between show and working (in Germany) and we have moved far far from that with line breeding back on each. So the two lines have diverged, much like a fan or veins in a leaf. At this point both lines are quite different in what they are linebred back on and in structure and temperament. Within each of those lines there is further splitting within the family. |
American lines are another vein in the leaf or fan. And they have diverged from the other two lines.
I am only saying the homework needs to be done (as have you)! On a public forum this needs to be emphasiszed.. or you will end up with that muddy grey that is not really representative of anything (including the traits of the breed).
My point is that it is NOT a simple matter of taking a solid Amercan Line German Shepherd and mating that dog with a solid German Line German Shepherd.
I am glad to hear that many breeders have done their homework. I am agreeing that is how it needs to be done.
by workingdogz on 07 December 2011 - 16:39
"In the beginning of developing the breed, I'm sure they didn't x-ray dogs hips & elbows, they went by the over all strength and structure of the breed and it's endurance, if it became lame it was most likely weeded out of the breed program.
There's nothing like a keen eye and a hands on approach when deciding who to use while developing your own breeding program...."
It's amusing, I have usually found those that do not xray/OFA/a-stamp are the ones that use this "theory" the most.
Or use it to defend breeding a dysplastic dog etc. And this is not directed at you personally mirasmom, its a general statement.
Absolutley a "hands on" approach should be taken when choosing a suitable match for your breeding dog, but only after you have gotten out and really worked that dog, that same dog has passed several minimal health tests etc.
Sorry, but people can yap all they want about "never being lame" etc, but if you actually took that dysplastic dog out and worked it hard, (agility type work) the dog would then break down. Most dogs are kept as pampered pets, so never know anything but the soft ground of their well manicured lawns, or rubber mats in an obedience school etc. Start asking that dog to really work, exercises out of motion, running/turning/jumping several times a week and you may see something different.
The problem with most weak dogs, no matter the lines, is when you couple physical issues with mental stress of training (remember, stress can be good and bad), the dog will show wear and start to breakdown. This may be something as simple as "too stressed to eat"- I'm sure most in dog fanciers know of dogs that had to be "tubed/stuffed" to be fed..otherwise they would not eat.
This is why it's important to do more with potential breeding animals than just run them around a ring, or get CGC's etc..really work that dog, no matter the lines, and see how the body and mind hold up. If that was more of a concern than types/lines, the breed might be a little healthier overall.
Working can be AKC obedience titles, tracking, agility, herding etc. But it should be the bare minimum, not just "va-fluffy von fluffess schh10" is the grandfather etc.
Otherwise, in my opinion, you are just breeding to produce merchandise, nothing more.
No schutzhund clubs? AKC/UKC etc are everywhere.
by Kalibeck on 07 December 2011 - 16:46
|I am in complete agreement with Rass & Workingdogz. Well spoken! jackie harris|
by destiny4u on 07 December 2011 - 17:53
|jackie the shutzund club treated u that way? wow sick|
by Sunsilver on 07 December 2011 - 19:42
|Just FYI, I know a breeder who imported a very well-bred German dog back in the '80s, and was preparing it for its Sch2. It was doing the a-frame and the scaling wall without difficulty.|
Then, someone wanted to breed to this dog, so the owner had his hips done.
As soon as the x-rays were dry, the vet called her into his exam room. "I want you to see this," he said. "This dog has just about the WORST hips I've ever seen!"
She shed a few tears, as it had cost over $5,000 to buy and import him, had him neutered, and found him a pet home.
So, when it comes to hips, NOTHING...but NOTHING takes the place of an x-ray!
by workingdogz on 07 December 2011 - 23:34
The breeder did the right thing! And yes, nothing takes the place of an xray.
There have been a few of dogs in the history of the sport that have competed at a high level with bad hips, however, it's not really known how those dogs faired once the regular training was done and they became sedentary. A fit dog with bad hips and high pain tolerance can accomplish a lot.
However, thats not the norm. Most times, these dogs break down before they are able to be titled etc.
Starting by maintaining some sort of working ability in ANY lines along with nothing but the healthiest of dogs should be the first step in breeding. ASL or otherwise.
by Sunsilver on 08 December 2011 - 13:29
|BTW, the breeder was Tina Barber, and hip dysplasia was one of the reasons she started her own breed.|
I think the reason this dog was still able to work was the hips were completely out of the sockets, so there was no pain from bone rubbing on bone. He also would have been quite fit due to the schutzhund training he was doing. So, it would have been similar to a dog that's had a femoral head osteotomy.
by Blitzen on 08 December 2011 - 13:54
There were a lot of surprised owners of large breed dogs when xraying hips fell into favor in the late 60's, early 70's. Some with the worst hips on xrays were the best working sleddogs, a much more demanding "sport" than Sch, French Ring, anything we would consider a good test of a GSD's endurance and character.
by Blitzen on 08 December 2011 - 14:25
|I suspect there are just as many breeders of German lines that do not xray hips and elbows as there are those breeding American lines. I am concerned that more breeders of both are not using the DNA DM test. The majority of ASL breeders I know are every bit as ethical as their GSL peers when it come to health checks prior to breeding and they generally test for more diseases/conditions. |
Advanced AKC titles like CDX's, UD's, UDT's, T's, advanced agility titles are difficult to attain. IMO the most diffcult and time consuming title for a GSD to earn is the HGH yet the few dogs that have done that don't seem to get the respect or recognition they deserve. For some reason we have come to be more impressed with a video of GSD standing atop a car trying to rip the roof off to get at a perp than we are a video of a GSD tending a flock of sheep.
by Blitzen on 08 December 2011 - 15:01
|Rass, given the fact that all GSD's spring from the same gene pool, IMO the "difference" we see between the GLS/GWL/ASL is a testament to the power of selective breeding. Dogs have mulitiple births so it really doesn't take very long to change the overall look and temperament of any breed. It would be quite possible to consistently produce dogs that look like and act like the foundation dogs in 4, 5 generations (or less) of selective breeeding.|
I doubt most would want to do that; it's not the style that is popular today and the tending temperament would probably not appeal to those who train in protection. Plus it would take linebreeding and some inbreeding to accomplish; both dirty words in the GSD world. So we play the hand that is dealt us and do the best we can .
by Kalibeck on 08 December 2011 - 15:20
|Yep, Destiny4u, it hurt, & it made me embarrassed about both myself & my girl, & it shaped the way I feel about going to training & Schutzhund clubs.....like I better know what I'm doing BEFORE I go, so it won't happen again. And to be fair, only a couple members took part in tearing down my girl & I. There are a few folks still around that were very nice, that I'm sure weren't aware of what happened. Some day, if my health allows, I'll try again. jackie harris|
by Blitzen on 08 December 2011 - 15:33
|Jackie, you need to move to The Tampa Bay area. We have a nice mix of lines, pedigrees, and breeds at our protection classes. And it never snows here either!!!|
by Kalibeck on 08 December 2011 - 15:41
|LOL, Blitzen, my husband's from St. Augustine....his sister's family lives in Tampa. We've been down to visit a couple of times....I wouldn't mind moving, but I'd have to convince him! He doesn't want to go back, for some reason....LOL! jackie harris|