German Shepherd Dog > I like American show bloodlines. Crosses anyone? (181 replies)
I like American show bloodlines. Crosses anyone?
by Smiley on 03 December 2011 - 13:37
|Well, I understand the bashing of the American show ring dog. In fact, I completely agree with the general concensus that these dogs are ruined.|
But, I see TONS of American show bloodlines earning high level performance titles; earning performance titles in diverse areas; and passing a lot of health and temperament tests. And, they are quite pretty doing it!!
I think the bizarre show ring dog is a VERY small part of the American show bloodline and I would even say it is really the "Specialty" type of dog that is ruined. Furthermore, I believe any dog that is bred, specifically, for the conformation ring and that's all is bound to be ruined...American or German.
But, I am certainly not going to throw the entire American bloodlines under the bus because of a small group of extreme showdogs!!
Just because a dog doesn't have a ScH title doesn't make him crap. I see lots of Am. bloodlines with advanced herding titles, advanced obedience or agility titles; passing temperament tests; volunteering at pet expos to let kids brush them; etc. Plus, I have seen...it's hard to get into ScH if you are a GSDCA mmeber. How do we know that these dogs could never do ScH? Maybe some of them just do not have the opportunity or the support?
Why aren't advanced AKC titles considered in determing whether a dog is a working dog? So, if a dog has a UD, HX, and TDX and has passed a BH and temperament test are they really that inferior to a dog that has a ScH 1?
I love a lot of things about all the different german shepherds! I like the color, bone/substance, coat, and pretty heads of the German Showline dog. I like the athleticism, health, and build of the German working line dogs. But, I also like the shoulder, front leg placement, gait, and back of the american bloodline (not the extreme showdog though).
Has anyone ever seen crosses between American show ring bloodlines and German working bloodlines?
The only one that I see advertised is this dog:
Seems to me that if we mix the three groups we would end up with perfect dogs!!
by Smiley on 03 December 2011 - 14:33
|Nobody? Doesn't anyone think there are good and bad dogs of each group? Is it possible that there are dedicated breeders from each group trying to produce the proper GSD? Can't we all get along? I Dislike greatly the infighting.... I just want everyone to do a huge group hug!!! Please. :-(|
by Sunsilver on 03 December 2011 - 14:50
|Here's my girl :http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=523413 |
She was a show/breeding prospect until her pigment faded, and her x-rays came back mildly dysplastic in one hip.
Now she's in training as my Hearing Ear service dog. She has superb temperament: very quick and eager to learn and great with kids. She has picked up some of the alerting tasks already just by watching Ranger, my soon-to-be retired service dog. She has good play/prey drive, but I'm not into schutzhund. I think she could do well at it, but I just don't have the time!
Despite her other flaws, I really like her overall structure. It's nice and moderate, with nothing exaggerated. Okay, the ears could be smaller and the earset better, and a few other little things...
I think this breeding blended two of the very best lines from the German and American dogs.
by GSDguy08 on 03 December 2011 - 15:10
|Smiley the dog you linked that you said is a "American show/german working cross" is not a German working cross at all. It's all German Show on the bottom....not working lines. Personally I wouldn't touch an AM line dog with a 20 foot poll. There is just nothing that makes them desirable for me. That's my opinion though, others may like them. How many American show line dogs are doing police work in comparison to working line dogs? I agree herding is definitely something for a working dog, but they should be trying to work more of them in Schutzhund. Volunteering at Pet expos, doing agility and OB are obviously good things for any dog to do. However I'm not convinced many AM show line breeders even breed for work (the work that the maker of the breed started them in), but hey, maybe someone can show me wrong on that.|
by vonissk on 03 December 2011 - 15:11
|Smiley the pedigree you put up is German showlines not working lines and American showlines.|
You asked does anybody cross German working lines and American lines. Yes mam we do. My Mauli girl is a mxture of American show, German work and DDR lines. Myself I like the cross--very balanced dogs. And yes I was flamed for it, oh you're ruining this and watering down this. Almost all the American show people I know that are bringing in the german lines are using German showlines.
We have several SAR dogs out of breeding that mix and a couple of drug dogs. I say a good dog is a good dog and as long as the lines compliment each other what difference does it make what lines they are? They're all GSDs..................
by GSDguy08 on 03 December 2011 - 15:12
|Sunsilver, regardless of the fact that I would never own a show line (No one needs to take that statement the wrong way, it's just my preference), you definitely have a pretty dog there.|
by 4 mals2sheps on 03 December 2011 - 15:14
by Dog1 on 03 December 2011 - 15:27
Interesting you bring this up. There are people that see a new direction for the AM line. There are breeders that have combined their AM stock with some German blood. The crosses I have seen have been dogs that had enough angulation to be acceptable with more color and substance. They did well at the one or two shows I saw them in. The judges accepted them.
There have been some males in the past that were campaigned AKC and became Champions. Most recent was VA Liedo. What appears to be on the verge of happening is acceptance and a movement towards the German dog through a combination of both lines. Bear in mind breeders that have spent generations developing what they think are good dogs don't give up their work overnight. Some have changed, some will never change, some will transition.
The transition group is what could be interesting and where the opportunity is. Those with a bit of an open mind about what they are doing. I anticipate some that begin crossing will eventually switch as they become exposed to the other type of dog. But it doesn't matter.
This opens up another set of opportunities. Let's face it the German dogs are just too complicated to show and train for the average person or family. Your post here about a simple 10.00 scorebook is a perfect example of the mess the German dog faces in the US. It has been my personal experience that 98% of the families that get dogs cannot penetrate the German System on their own. The AKC has a network all over the country. It's fairly easy to enter and show. It's something the family can do. If you want to show dogs, you can do AKC shows within reasonable distances all the time. It's something the family can do each month. This opportunity simply does not exist in the WDA or USA.
So what to do? Here's what we're doing. It's a test. We're loading up the German dogs this weekend and going to an AKC show. Prepare to be slaughtered? Maybe, but I don't think so. This show has a different atmosphere. Judges are Dr. Goldfarb and Helen Gleason. Both judges have experience with the German and AKC dogs. They will be holding a seminar after the judging to explain the differences between the dogs. I think it will be very informative. We have entered 5 in the show.
by SummertimeGSD on 03 December 2011 - 16:18
|Good points Dog1 about the German style shows being a pain to enter for the average dog owner. I show under the GSDCA-WDA shows, so first you must order the 4 generation pedigree from AKC. Nope, not the 3 gen. one that they offer when you register your dog, have to go online or call them and get the 4 gen. one, I think that runs you about $32. Then you have to make sure your pet is tattooed or microchipped. You must take them to the vet to have them sign a form that they read the tattoo or microchip, send that form along with $15 and the pedigree to GSDCA-WDA to have the pedigree certified by them. Also you have to send an additional $15 for the scorebook that if you are never going to do schutzhund, you will never use, but you have to have it. Oh and these are the member prices, so if you're not a member you can also include your $50 membership fee to become a member for a year, or you can pay the non-member prices for the scorebook and pedigree. Then to enter the show, you need copies of all these items as well as vaccine certificate from your vet. When you go to the show, if your dog is microchipped you are expected to provide your own microchip scanner to identify your dog. You better have hired a handler, because if you walk in the ring alone without having a double handler, no matter how ring trained your dog is, the judge will be angry with you. If your dog is under 1 year your ratings are equivalent to a "puppy match." If the dog is between 1-2 years you can get an "official" rating for a young dog, and if your dog is over 2 you can't enter a regular class for a rating unless you have schutzhund titled your dog. All of this is pretty complicated for a newbie! In comparison, AKC and UKC you fill out a form and include about $25, you can handle your own dog, and maybe come out with some ribbons! What would you do if you were new to the sport??|
I also like a lot of the mixed lines, the dogs I breed are of mixed lines. That being said, it's harder to place these dogs into homes where they will be shown or worked because of the predjudice towards one line or another. Top show/working people are going to go with the well-known lines that they are familiar with, they generally won't take a chance on a "new" breeder or line. Training and showing a dog, especially to top levels, is time consuming and expensive. In many cases, the only way these dogs will be shown is if the breeder themselves keeps and shows the dogs, and they can only keep and show so many dogs, and the more dogs they have, the less time and money they are able to spend on each individual dog. See where this is going? So the next best hope is to get new people involved in the sports.
Then to top it all off, you have to have tough skin to show up at a show or training with your dog that isn't of the "type" people are accustomed to. There are good, nice clubs out there, but there are some that are not. I signed up for an AD and BH at a schutzhund trial, this was my first experience in the schutzhund world. The people there were so rude that they criticized the embroidered GSD that I had on my shirt, right in front of me! They were shocked that I didn't have my dog kept in a bombproof metal crate in my car. They were even more shocked when we received a "PASS" in our scorebook. My next 2 schutzhund experiences with other clubs were much more pleasant, but for many that first experience would have been the end.
Dog1, let us know how your show weekend goes! I have shown my dogs in AKC conformation before, but I've never had enough $$ or helpers to get them all in the ring at once.
by Nans gsd on 03 December 2011 - 16:25
|Hurrah for Dog l. Good luck at the shows. The only thing I might ad to the above is that I do believe MOST Am. showlines are x-raying for HD/ED; why not DM and some of the other extremely detremental diseases the breed passes on. I have not seen too many AM. showlines checking past HD/ED, occasionally eye cerf's; but only occasionally. What's up with that? Shame on sticking their heads in the sand. DM is a devastating and horrific bring the dog down disease with testing VERY available to everyone. Why not take advantage to save our breed? Nan|
by cphudson on 03 December 2011 - 16:33
|Dog1 great post, & good luck at the show this weekend. I use to never care for the Am line GSD, until I was exposed to many more of them.|
They do have their extremes in confirmation & temperament, but not all are like that now. Mainly due to being mixed with German lines both show & working. I hear from many families that lost their beloved dogs (Am lines), they did a lot as a family with their dogs through AKC trails; tracking, obedience, fly ball, agility, rally, herding, confirmation, junior handling, etc..
The SCH club I often attend for training recently had people coming to test their dogs for SCH. I was very surprised they were Am lines / mixes. The mix looks more like a nice structured working lines but with more stream line body shape. Both are working well in protection & tracking. You see a bigger difference in obedience both dogs are so willing to please, & calm in obedience they will work just for praise if need be.
10 years ago I had a accidental breeding with my WL female. She was let out into our fully fenced in yard. We didn't really have any close neighbors near us & never had roaming dogs before. So I had my guard down. 5 minutes later looked out the window & there were 2 GSD's in my yard tied. I had a mini heart attack. Long story short the dog was Am champion sired by some legendary Am champion dog, & fully health screen. The sire's breeder was thrilled she always wanted to see want this mix would produce. Of course this was the largest litter of GSD's I've ever had of 14 puppies. Over all the mixture added better bone, heads, more masculine appearance to the males, stronger hocks, & better feet. The Am show line did add a very beautiful top line, shoulders, front, & gait to the puppies without any extremes. Temperament wise & work ability with in the litter varied greatly. There were some awesome work quality dogs, a little more than half the litter. The rest of the litter were best suited as family pets. No shyness / fearfulness in the litter. One of the puppies became a service dog for disable woman, few SAR dogs, most others did AKC actives including confirmation & therapy work. The sire's owner kept a female for showing & adding into her breeding program. I'll look for the photo's of the puppies & post them later.
by vonissk on 03 December 2011 - 16:57
|Dog1 I wish you the best of luck and I too would like to hear how you do.|
Summertime very good post. And I like what you said about the puppies being hard to place. in other than a pet home. I find most people are more prejudiced against the American blood then the German blood. I get calls and people find that out--and I don't mean it like they have to find it cause I amhonest about the dogs--and they say oh no I have to have an all German dog for a watchdog, those American dogs are deformed and on and on. Then there are others who want to start breeding and they decide they're not going to become rich with those lines and only the all German ones will make them rich..............whatever.....................
Also Dog1 you say some will switch to the other dog. Well I've been in the breed going on 30 yrs and I switched from german dogs to mixing them--I'm a lot more pleased. As I said above they are definately more balanced and more of a self thinking type dog. I am more interested in the golden middle--a show dog you can work and a working dog you can show.................
by Smiley on 03 December 2011 - 17:23
|Thanks for the posts!!|
Dog..I am with you! I am also packing up my bitch (German WL pup) and showing AKC next month. We showed UKC as well. I just want to give people another look at a different type of dog.
It would be cool to offer some kind of ScH test for American bloodlines at Breed shows where someone can see if their dog shows potential for ScH.
I am not saying I love the American showring dog. Yuck. I don't. But, I think the american showdog represents a small percentage of GSDs from this bloodline. Unfortunately, they are the most visible (shows, advertising, websites). I bet the percentage of GSDCA mmebers that show in AKC is small. However, I would also bet my house that there are a lot of small backyard breeders dedicated to producing a stable, balanced GSD (and happen to use american showline). They have no desire to show and there dogs reflect that fact and are much more to breed standard. I have seen some of these dogs and they look more working line and act more west german showline. They seem like pretty nice dogs.
The more one breeds for the show ring (american or german) than the more extreme and weird the dog becomes as the only thing that matters is the blue ribbon (not temperament, health, athleticism, working ability). Likewise, have some Working Line breeders gone the other way and now breed for super hard dogs that get a big "wow" in protection but fail to be balanced? Breeding solely for competition is never healthy in any avenue.
I believe that the GSD should be a moderate, balanced dog......no extremes in anything...looks, gait, working ability, etc.
I like any dog that fits the description!! It would seem a combination would be interesting!
by Dog1 on 03 December 2011 - 17:38
|I just talked to a long time American breeder that combined both lines and has what she feels are some very nice offspring. She combined a Vando Moorbeck daughter (known working ability producer. This dog would work all day until the day she died) with her AM male, I mean dog. Result was a dog she was really happy with.|
She and some of her friends will be going to the show. They are receptive to the idea. I think the breeders in the area are not so narrow minded and will be open to what the judges have to say. I think it will be a meeting where both can understand the other in an atmosphere of respect for the other.
by Blitzen on 03 December 2011 - 19:07
|I think Helen will be pleased to have some GSL's in her ring. I wish I were closer to VA, I'd love to be a spectator and sit in on that meeting.|
No, I'm not going to tell her about her entry, AKC judges can't know that , and she doesn't read this board.
by Blitzen on 03 December 2011 - 19:18
Nans, I think there is going to be a lot more talk about the DNA test for DM within the GSDCA. I think we will see more doing that test in the near future.
by JakodaCD OA on 03 December 2011 - 22:35
|I lost my 13 year old am show line/east german male two years ago. He was the 'best' dog ever:) Bicolor male that I decided to try the "ring thing" with many years ago as a learning experience.. In matches, he always took a Herding Group 1, in akc conformation ring, I showed him maybe 6 times, and he went Reserve each time...So always a best man but never a "groom" :) |
I stopped, because it was just a learning experience for us both, I wasn't looking to gain those points or finish him, just something I wanted to try.
If I could have cloned him I would have:(
by dAWgESOME on 04 December 2011 - 01:08
Sounds nuts and I doubt I'll ever see it happen in my life time but my personal "vision" for the German Shepherd Dog is to see an evolution towards what I have started to call the "Renaissance Line".
It will be impossible to delineate its genetic origin by looking at the dog or what is accomplished in the show ring or on the field because it will be kicking ass and looking great while doing it in any and all venues its actively participating in.
by Blitzen on 04 December 2011 - 01:44
|That's a great vision, dawg; I share it with you.|
by Blitzen on 04 December 2011 - 01:51
|Jakoda, what great memories of your heart dog. I too wish you could have cloned him.|