German Shepherd Dog > What does NICHT ZT 5643/12 mean for title? (19 replies)
What does NICHT ZT 5643/12 mean for title?
by mirasmom on 27 November 2011 - 23:23
|This appeared after a ScHH1,|
Here is her link:
by Hedi on 28 November 2011 - 00:15
|There is progeny listed for her....looks to me like "not breedworthy." Interesting.|
by TingiesandTails on 28 November 2011 - 02:02
|Yes, it means "not breedworthy". It looks like this dog was deemed not breedworthy at a breed survey at got a Nicht ZT with number stamped into the papers. There might have been issues with either behaviour, genetic defects, tooth problems or else....the list is long. Hips seem to have been good.|
by mirasmom on 28 November 2011 - 11:51
|Maybe it was temperament, cause she has an SG......|
She must have been having a bad day & gave the judge a hard time.....
interesting......I notice the last number being a 12, I have only seen a number as low as 22
in other pedigrees...
by Schaferhunden on 28 November 2011 - 12:45
|ZPT # dogs is crap period|
by Elkoorr on 28 November 2011 - 15:14
|basically... dog is soft and failed the 2 parts of the courage test. TSB insufficient.|
by Hukka on 28 November 2011 - 19:18
She is listed in the:
DDR Körbuch 1980 page 94 nicht ZT 5643/12
DDR Körbuch 1981 page 106 ZTP 5647/33
by BoCRon on 29 November 2011 - 17:41
|Pretty interesting. She has 2 progeny listed. Click on that and she was bred to 2 different V rated dogs, one of which was Ingo von Rudingen. If you click on the the other pup who was SG Fanny vom Parchimer Land you see she was bred to V1 (DDR Sieger) Olf vom Furstendamm, and so on and so on. One of those pups, Quenn vom Parchimer Land, produced quite a few himself, so must have been popular to some small extent. Just interesting to see the progression.|
I wonder if she was bred prior to getting the "not breedworthy" rating.
by Smiley on 29 November 2011 - 18:38
|Interesting!! Could it be for something silly like she threw white pups? Wonder what things would make a dog no longer breed worthy? Sara|
by MVF on 29 November 2011 - 20:25
|Too bad the code doesn't say. A lot of folks would object more strenously to some of these issues than others. She was a1, titled and SG - so she had a very irritable or avoidant day?|
by MVF on 29 November 2011 - 20:35
|4. BREED WORTH AND PREREQUISITES FOR BREEDING |
4.1. Breed Worth
The following classifications apply:
4.1.1. Eligible for Breeding
Eligible for breeding are all dogs entered in the USA Breed Book (if the owner resides in the United States), who on the day of breeding have at least one performance title (SchH1-3, VPG1-3, IP1-3, or HGH) obtained under a USA-recognized performance judge, a breed show rating of at least “good” obtained under a USA-recognized breed judge in the youth, young dog, or working dog classif not already breed surveyed under USA or SV regulations, and a USA-recognized hip certification.
4.1.2. Recommended for Breeding
Dogs recommended for breeding are those breed surveyed in Breed Survey Class 1 (KKL1) at a USA-recognized breed survey.
4.1.3. Suitable for Breeding
Dogs suitable for breeding are those breed surveyed in Breed Survey Class 2 (KKL2) at a USA-recognized breed survey.
4.1.4. Not Suitable for Breeding
Progeny of dogs classified as not suitable for breeding cannot be entered in the USA Breed Book. The dog owner is informed of this decision by certified mail. Appeals against this decision must be made within 14 days of the decision date. The person responsible for the USA Breed Book will decide appeals. The National Breed Warden will decide further appeals. The following faults preclude breeding:
220.127.116.11. Do not meet requirements set forth under 4.1.1. to 4.1.3. (NO)
18.104.22.168. Dogs registered in the Performance Register.
22.214.171.124. Dogs with the following faults:
• Faulty temperament, aggressive or nervous biters, or weak nerves (MAYBE, BUT AFTER EARNING SchH1 and SG)
• Documented hip dysplasia = NO (a1)
• Monorchids or cryptorchids = NO (female!)
• Disfiguring ear and/or tail faults =NO (SG!)
• Considerable anatomical faults = NO (SG!)
• Long coat or long stock coat = NO (SG!)
• Considerable pigment deficiencies, including blues
• Dentition faults as follows: (NO)
• Missing one premolar #3 and one additional tooth
• Missing one canine tooth
• Missing one premolar #4
• Missing one molar #1
• Missing one molar #2
• Missing three or more teeth
• Missing molar #3 is not counted
• Dogs having proof that the missing tooth or teeth had originally been in place are exempt from this rule. Proof must be entered on the pedigree, theKörschein, or a dental status form.
• Faulty jawbones: (N0)
• Overshot more than 2 mm
• Level bite
• Oversized or undersized more than 1 cm, measured at the withers (maximum is males 66 cm/bitches 61 cm and minimum is males 59 cm/bitches 54 cm)
• Females that have whelped three times by cesarean section (MAYBE?)
• Severed musculus pectineus
126.96.36.199. Surgical interventions for the purpose of correcting, obtaining, or improving a breed show rating (i.e., ears, tails, teeth, testicles, skeleton) entail a breeding ban and initiate disciplinary proceedings against the owner and/or all co-owners.
BUT THE ***3/12 IS THE GIVEAWAY = SHE WAS RESERVED, SUSPICIOUS OR AGGRESSIVE, WITH NO SHARPNESS AND WITH SOME (BUT NOT SUFFICIENT) COURAGE AND HARDNESS. She was not shy-sharp (not sharp at all), but she sure didn't want to be there! It seems she was "reserved" to the point of near incapacity.
by MVF on 29 November 2011 - 20:47
|That almost describes my ex-wife, but she had plenty of hardness...|
I, myself, can be reserved to near incapacity on occasion.
by Dox on 29 November 2011 - 21:25
|This is in the Winsis|
by gaf on 29 November 2011 - 23:04
|Is she really 35 years old????|
by hexe on 30 November 2011 - 07:34
|The winSis link shows 3 offspring from the bitch under the v Parchimer Land kennel name, and 5 progeny under the v Trafalga kennel name; it also shows that she was V3 at the 1978 DDR-Siegerausstellung.|
I thought I recalled that the DDR survey system was markedly different than the SV's, in that it was coded much in the same way as I believe the other former Eastern Bloc countries (Czech, etc.) are. Checked my reference bookmarks, and voila! I was remembering correctly.
So, based on the chart below that explains the rating code, when the bitch was surveyed in 1980 and was not given a passing rating, this is how she was assessed:
5=Size--medium strong; 6=Appearance--robust, substantial; 4=Conformation--good angulation; 3=Temperament--distrustful or aggressive to people (DDR sharpness); /1=Fighting instinct--none; 2=Hardness--some
When resurveyed in 1981, when it appears she was given a passing rating, she had the same evaluation for Size, Appearance, and Conformation, but for Temperament, she was then rated at 7--Even tempered, calm, sensitive to corrections; for Fighting instinct, she was slightly upgraded to 3--fair, and for Hardness she was also upgraded slightly with a 3--fair.
I'm thinking that she if she was ultimately completely banned from use for breeding, despite appearing to have gotten a (barely) passing rating at the 1981 survey and raising the Temperament rating up from a 3 to a 7, it was because she didn't show sufficient improvement over the 1980 rating in the Fighting instinct and Hardness categories and therefore was deemed unsuitable (and reasonably so, IMO).
The info shown below is from the website of Alt-Ostland East German Shepherds: http://www.ddrk-9.com/titles.html
I think the breeder is still a member on here....Judy Malone, are you out there? Do you know what the story was for this particular bitch?
In the old DDR (East Germany) working dogs were rated under the Wertmessziffer system ( "measured value number"
system, which was quick and easily understood by breeders/buyers wanting to study the conformation/temperament of any
dog with a rating.
For example, a dog with a WZ of 6545/55 would be powerful, noble and strong, with harmonious and pleasing lines, good
angulation, , even-tempered, calm, can take corrections very well, with very good fighting instinct and hardness.
Below is a chart of the system. In pedigrees, you may see the numbers preceded by "WZ" or DDR Kör:
by hexe on 30 November 2011 - 07:37
|gaf, yes, this bitch WOULD be 35 years old if she were still alive today, but I'm p-r-e-t-t-y sure she's no longer on this astral plane....|
by Hukka on 30 November 2011 - 14:23
V3 1978 Siegerausstellung page 41
by beetree on 30 November 2011 - 14:38
Uh-oh....that is an infamous name....I'm sure I heard it before, Judy Malone, oh yes, I did!
by VKGSDs on 30 November 2011 - 18:39
|Don't know anything about this dog/this case (interesting though) but just wanted to say that the SG rating doesn't necessarily mean the dog was faultless. I have a dog that got SG2 (beat by his half brother who had considerably more ring training) when he was 13 months. At the time he had an overbite. The judge made no note of his bite during the critique. Then after the class I took him up for the dental notation. Then the judge decided the overbite was still considerable. However he did me a favor and instead of noting the overbite on the dental notation, he gave me my papers back, told me to give it a few more months and try again. The dog is now three and the overbite is still there but I can never tell if it is too big or not. I have not shown him in the SV ring since and never tried again for the dental notation. He is now titled and I would like to do a breed survey. Some people tell me the overbite is so marginal it will not matter; other people tell me it is too big and I risk having a notation like this thread describes on the pedigree. I don't really care since I am not breeding this dog and the overbite as it is is merely aesthetic (the rest of the bite is fine, teeth line up and fit together properly, no teeth touching gums). So anyway, I guess it's possible for a dog to earn SG for their breed survey show card and still possess a fault that might effect them negatively at the breed survey.|
by hexe on 30 November 2011 - 22:33
|beetree, yeah, I know...<sigh> OTOH, all of that doesn't make this particular information any less accurate; from the website, it appears that the breeder is doing a lot of UKC showing, and I have to admit the dogs pictured on the website are quite attractive.|