German Shepherd Dog > Czech Boarder Dogs (88 replies)
by Ace952 on 23 December 2011 - 17:07
I totally feel you right here. I see way too much Grim in pedigrees today. So much so that you can't get the hell away from him when looking at potential breedings. Now you have dogs triple and quadruple linebred on him and that is way too much. You back yourself into a corner when it comes to breeding. I don't mind once in a PED or maybe 1 linebreeding but that triple & quadruple is way too much. You do see many dogs linebred on Klara also and of course with that, you are asking for it.
by Ace952 on 23 December 2011 - 17:40
|As far as socialization goes, I would say that socialization would be highly recommended especially with these lines.|
by elisabeth00117 on 23 December 2011 - 18:36
|Just curious since I have a Grim decendant... which lines would you like to see brought in?|
by skyhorse on 23 December 2011 - 19:10
|This is my Czech born and bred dog - Walldemoso Opavia Hof (Luger). imported by way of Slovakia to US.|
He is west German on top (by a Ben-Ju dog by Jabina Querry). On bottom he also has west German - is grandson of Cherry Eqidius (by Tyson von der Schiffslache) and has Czech, DDR as well via his mothers mother line.
Very impressive dog (to me :) good balance of sport and "realness".
by skyhorse on 23 December 2011 - 19:12
|oops, forgot his pedigree.|
would be interested in learning more about his Czech lines.
by aaykay on 23 December 2011 - 20:03
|Just curious since I have a Grim decendant... which lines would you like to see brought in?|
I think nobody denies that Grim is an absolutely top-notch dog, one of the best there-is, and which is why he is found so extensively in these pedigrees. And therein lies the issue too, right ?
Since he is found so extensively in these pedigrees, at times several times in the same pedigree, all of his considerable strengths (and whatever weaknesses may be lurking) will be even more concentrated into these future litters. And when one wants to do an "outcross" into Czech lines that don't contain Grim (or one of the other studs used extensively, across-the-board), one finds that those are pretty limited/rare. That is the concern that is being expressed above, if I am not mistaken.
Regardless of how absolutely stunning a stud dog is, one still want to broaden the gene-pool, than narrow it further by having even more concentration of the same genes, into the next generation, right ?
My 6-month old girl is line-bred 5-5 on Titus and 5-4 on Grim, and when it comes time to look for a mate for her (assuming everything else pans out, including her hips/elbows etc), I might look towards lines that don't contain some of these extensively used studs.....which in turn seems to be a rare find nowadays, if one localizes one's search to well known czech lines (and tries to avoid Czech lines with characteristics that one is not interested in).
by Prager on 23 December 2011 - 21:01
Some are worrying about Grim here.
Well let me make the following point, that is since you are worrying about the wrong thing.
Grim z Pohrnaincni straze is an excellent example of 3rd male line started by Klodo v Boxberg. Klodo
This is one of my most favorite lines since the dogs there are driven workers of great personality and willingness to please.
There are so many opinions on Grim that it makes me wonder. As the new info on Grim's progeny arrived even I have corrected several years ago my opinion on Grim. Many falsely think that Grim has bad influence on hips. However the opposite is the truth. This myth
is perpetuated by people who do not know these dogs as we do and just look at pedigrees. Grim's father Ben z Bolfu had hips Noch zugelassen.
You may think ,...not so great.
However! The truth of the matter is different though.
Czech border patrol did post mortem autopsy and Grim and his hips were PERFECT! Thus there is not exceptional concern about Grim's progeny's hips.
Grim is actually considered hips improver these days.
Grim however passed somewhat higher probability of poor elbows which problem these days was pretty much bred out. Crossbreeding with Titus z PS and other hip/elbows improvers helped that.
I have seen dogs these days with Grim 5 x in 5 generation with no increased elbows problems. But it is something which you need to keep in mind and stay away from certain dogs if you breed Grim line so that you do not outcross on the same problem. Grischa vd Schwartzhen Milan and others come to mind here. Please keep in mind that there are NO PERFECT DOGS. But grim is one of the dogs who come close to it. That is why he is so popular!
However this is what I am repeating like a broken record you must know ho to compensate for problems of one dog with virtues of other.
Many just put two dogs of even high quality and produce problem.
Another think which is important is for you to know that you must be breeding TOTAL DOG and not just hips or such and that leads to educated compromises based on experience.
by Prager on 23 December 2011 - 21:17
|FYI if you want to see how far an influence of the dog goes look at Ben z Bolfu above> You will notice reversed mask which I at AlpineK9 am trying to maintan and revive and which comes together with "true"-inherited protective character of these dogs . This comes from a dog Ex vom Riedstern DDR|
dog which has many dogs with reverse mask in his background and was very serious in protection. Thus if you see a dog with reverse mask there is excellent chance that this dog is in the background and such dog is very protective.
by aaykay on 24 December 2011 - 04:41
|Hans, did you intend to say that after the post mortem autopsy, Ben and his hips were Perfect ?|
by Prager on 25 December 2011 - 17:42
|aaykay thank you.|
That is what I meant to say. I have tried to change it but the PDB system will not let me do so. I had a brain fart, as I often do, the sentence should have been :
Czech border patrol did post mortem autopsy on Ben z Bolfu and his hips were PERFECT! Thus there is not exceptional concern about Grim's progeny's hips.
Again thank you for catching this.
by danny killeen on 25 December 2011 - 23:12
'Ace this is one of the best pedigrees I have seen. It is all 3rd line and your dog is typical representative of it.'
Did you mean FOURTH bloodline?
Jago is the 4th, no?
by Ace952 on 25 December 2011 - 23:38
|Yes, Jago is the 4th bloodline BUT he displays more characteristics of the 3rd bloodline. Keep that in mind.|
by duke1965 on 26 December 2011 - 11:57
|there still are good dogs to find without grimm , but I dont see the problem , ace , I see you are thinking a bit different here then on other forum.a dog closely linebred on Grimm is no problem ,every dog in the world outcrossed to grimm son would be , a dog linbred 5 times on grimm with great caracter and healthscores would be very interesting because of predictability of offspring and passing on qualities of grimm.|
. as far as the line thing goes , dog can be of one line , but be carrying genes and show caracteristics of other line , so what is the use tu put a dog in a box and label it second line or fourth line
@ skyhorse , I would say you dont have czech dog , but dog bred in czech , can be a superdog , no discussion there , but not a czechdog as mentioned in topic
@ jill , how many great dogs and combinations/litters you want withour Grimm
by Ace952 on 26 December 2011 - 20:08
|Duke - Yes you can find some PED's without heavy linebreeding on Grim. I don't mind a single line breeding. I don't feel the need for heavy linebreeding on him though (5,5-4 or a 5-5-54...as examples). With Grim predominantely on many U.S czech peds, he is hard to get away from. I do agree that you need to see what others dogs are in the PED to help balance things.|
How many great dogs do we see that have 5x linebreeding on Grim?
by duke1965 on 26 December 2011 - 20:39
|ace , its not in the numbers , you can have a dog with grim 5 times in the 5th generation that doesnot carry any genes or characteristics from grim , its not that simple not for the pros and not for the cons|
linebreeding is sooooooooo much more than doubling up names on paper
by skyhorse on 27 December 2011 - 15:30
|I didn't say I had a "Czech dog" - the topic is Czech Boarder (Border Patrol) dogs which very few people actually have in the US. I'm very aware of the topic of "who" can really "breed" Czech dogs proper.|
I said I had a "Czech born and bred dog" which I am proud of and maybe one day I will get another or a "Czech dog" as such. There are certain traits that Czech LINES bring that I'm very much fond of. I got mine because I wanted more than just a "sport dog".
by duke1965 on 27 December 2011 - 18:41
|skyhorse , nothing bad meant by me , just my opinion , other than that you have a BEAUTIFUL dog , and can be better than any of my dogs|
by Herd with GS on 27 December 2011 - 18:46
|There are some top exporters of Czech dogs on here all the time Aneribre (spelling) and some others I would to to Eurosport they always have some top dogs for sale and puppies are so reasonable in Czech for some of the top lines. Paying inflated prices does not assure you of a quality dog|
by Slamdunc on 27 December 2011 - 19:48
|Anrebi certainly has beautiful dogs and Eurosport has an excellent reputation. I would deal directly with Eurosport and have never heard a bad thing about them.|
by skyhorse on 27 December 2011 - 21:27
|" Most, if not all of them are mixed with other lines. The best GSD I ever had was a mix of Czech, ddr, and west. "|
that is what I have :)
am still learning and trying to figure out the different Czech kennels.
I'd like to go to Hans Prager's seminar some day...
does anyone know what "Ulcova Dvora" is?
This Ulcova Dvora dog, for example, was sired by Treu vom Schaferstolz, a DDR dog imported to Czech and used at PS.